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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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OakenShield224:
Hello everyone. I have a question about the Universe of Middle Earth. Here is a quote from Fellowship of the Ring.

--- Zitat ---So the days slipped away, as each morning dawned bright and fair, and each evening followed cool and clear. But autumn was waning fast; slowly the golden light faded to pale silver, and the lingering leaves fell from the naked trees. A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I was curious about the red star. One theory online about it was that it was a representation of Mars, the Bringer of War. However, are there any other explanations for what it is?
Also, the sun and moon are both controlled by Maiar, but what information is there about any other planets in Arda? Are there any references to planets in any of the texts?

Walküre:
According to the reasoning addressed above, about customary interpretations, I guess we don't have much information on something such as planets. I think that the only 'planet' is Arda itself (an inhabitable planet). Any other celestial creation can't be anything else but one of Varda's ancient stars, which are exactly meant to emanate light and energy.

Otherwise, as I pointed out in my previous comment, the very concept of other planets could be quite disruptive indeed: their physical shape should be the one that Arda was previously characterised by (before the fall of Númenor), and so they would resemble flat masses of matter.

The_Necromancer0:
I debated internally where to put this for a while and in the end I decided to post it here.

This is my view on the age old question, what would have happened if Sauron had managed to regain the One Ring? It's sort halfway between debate and fan fiction which was why I was debating where to post it. I'm just gonna put my views on it out there and then I'd be more than happy to politely debate with people who have different opinions.

One thing that really defines how it all goes down is where and when the One Ring is regained. Do the Nazgul succeed in their assault atop Weathertop? Do they manage to capture it when Frodo goes through Osgiliath? During the Minas Morgul/Cirith Ungol period? Other times that I can't be bothered to list?

For this particular debate, I'm gonna pick the climax of the books and of the movies: the Battle at the Black Gate. And as to what trigger that bend in this timeline, I was thinking it could be something as simple as Sam deciding to kill Gollum during their encounter, at the entrance of Mount Doom. Therefore, Frodo claims the ring and escapes with all ten of his fingers but is later caught by the Nazgul who strike him down and bring the Ring to their master, and this is where it all begins. So, considering everything above we now resume a bullet point version of this fanfiction/theorizing.

-The Nazgul do briefly flee to get the Ring back and Gandalf gives his line: "Stand Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom!". However, the retrieval of the One is successful and the host of Mordor is once again filled with rage.

-The Captains of the West's army slowly falls before the unending hordes of Mordor, our heroes are the last few standing but are cut down eventually one by one.

-Gandalf is the last to fall, fighting to the very end until Sauron himself enters the battlefield and strikes him down.

-The Eagles are overpowered by the Nazgul who are now much strengthened by the Ring and the return of the King (Witch-King that is), who now has a body once again thanks to the power of the One.

-Sauron for a while rebuilds his armies and then sends them out once again against Minas Tirith, the city falls with ease it has no gate and his manned by only a few soldiers who lose all hope seeing the black army of Mordor pouring onto the fields of Pellenor.

-Faramir and Eowyn are the last to fall, still weak but fighting to the end defending the White Tree, who is then set ablaze once they are vanquished.

-Because of this theory's starting points, the battle of Dale has been won by the army of Sauron, the Evil Men swept through the defences of Erebor after a long battle and entered the great halls slaughtering all in their path. Then this army joins with the one sieging Mirkwood, tipping the scales in their favor. What can Thranduil do against such a vast horde? Lothlorien is safe for now but siege from all side and it's outer border has been burnt down

At this point it does get harder, there are many possibilities and outcomes as to what might happen next but I will try to do my best. As it stands, Men have suffered a terrible loss in the destruction of Minas Tirith and the Elves and Dwarves have lost the North but it will be less detailed since many factors can now influence how events happen.

-Considering the relative distance of everything, it is likely that Mordor's army will sweep through the remains of Gondor, the Nazgul crushing all hope in the heart of men and leading multiple assaults throughout Gondor.

-They then push toward Rohan, virtually undefended and burn it down to the ground, the peasants of Rohan are brave but there is nothing they can do against such vast hordes made up of all manner of creatures.

-Sauron has not been idle, breeding all sort of foul beasts in the pits of Barad Dur, enhanced with magic who now come to reinforce his army. (Nothing amazing, just stuff like smarter trolls, stronger orcs).

- Sauron now makes way for Lorien, but before he can reach it the Mordor host manage to breach the borders: Nenya has turned against its user, and while it is not enough to completely corrupt Galadriel, she can no longer use it to protect her realm. A last battle for Middle Earth starts all the forces of Good opposing Sauron in the hope that they might slow his advance enough.

-But the power of Mordor is too much, everyday fouler beasts emerge from the enemy ranks and the Nazgul are ever present, keeping the ground troops motivated (aka being more scary than the elves) and the sky empty of hope as their fell beasts seem to cover all of the stars. Every day do the free people fight, pushing back Mordor but every night Mordor attacks once again, using the cover of darkness to their advantage.

-The last of the creatures of Good pour in: Ents, Beorning and Eagles. The battle goes on for ages, Orcs fall by the thousands but more keep coming and whenever they manage to strike down a free folk it leaves an empty gap in the line. In addition, the victorious Evil Men now battle with zeal: they have seen the power of Mordor and it fills their heart with an unending will to battle.

- Elrond comes to reinforce Lorien, briefly tipping the scale in their favor. However, Sauron arrives just at this moment and goes straight for him. Elrond soon falls, followed by Celeborn. The Evil Host keeps pushing until there is nowhere to run, in the very heart of Caras Galadhon, Galadriel makes her final stand facing Sauron but without her Ring of power she is no match for a fully powered Sauron, she is struck down and Lorien falls.

-Sauron sweeps through the rest Middle Earth, killing Saruman, once he find him, for betraying him. He burns the Shire down and enslaves its people. Evil's victory is complete.

After that, it's even harder to think of what could possibly happen. Either the Valar abandon Middle Earth to its faith, staying safely in Valinor till Dagor Dagorath or they march out against Sauron, resulting in their easy victory. Or maybe, the events cause Dagor Dagorath to never happen and the Valar remain passive and Sauron gets to rule till the end of times. Who knows?

I'll be glad to fix any mistakes I might have made if anybody points them out to me. I'm impatient to hear thoughts about this if scenario. Hopefully, I triggered a least a couple of you which should lead to an interesting debate, all under the watchful eye of the great moderator that lives on this forum, an elf-admin, of terrible power.

EDIT: I've fixed the slight timeline issues I had, it does make it a lot less of a fair fight but that's just the most likely series of event in my eyes.

Melkor Bauglir:
Hmm, an interesting topic. I'm sure, I'll reply more in depth later, for now I'll be brief:
 - I think you made a couple of wrong starting points. As far as I remember the Easterlings lost at Erebor only after the Ring was destroyed and were sieging the mountain during the battle at the Black Gate. Thus Sauron's victory would have been even more crushing and considering...
 - Lothlorien's and Mirkwood's armies destroyed Dol Guldur after the the war was essentially over. Meaning, even his northern base of operation would have been intact. ;)

And then I think, Sauron would indeed rule for eternity. Actually, the reason for this thought is the more interesting one because it's not "'cause evil"! I guess, allowed the Valar to continuously return to Middle Earth and fix this mess, completely ruins the story for me, because then the stakes are basically non-existant and I'd really ask myself, why they do anything at all. Imagine Gandalf saying to Frodo: "Remember, he must never get the Ring! Otherwise Middle Earth is doomed forever... Nah, not forever... Probably a couple of years, then the Valars will show up and fix everything anyways... Meaning my work here is 100% pointless. Well, guess I'll do something else then!" Obviously that would never happen and it also misses 100% the tone of Middle Earth, but giving the good guys a chance to recover, after they basically did everything wrong, is slightly lame in my opinion. Now that's obviously just from a storytelling perspective.
However even from a historical perspective: Isn't Valinor removed from this world forever? As far as I remember that was basically the final result of Numenors destruction (funnily also Sauron's work!) thus I doubt the Valar could just walk Middle Earth again.

And as a last point: I think, you overestimate the importance of orcs in Mordor's ranks. Not to say, they weren't important, but them making up the entire army is a relic from the movies. In the books (you are obviously referring too since Frodo doesn't move to Osgiliath) that evil men make up for a strong part if not most part of Sauron's forces.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

The_Necromancer0:
Damn, that's a pretty major mistake I made here. I was sure that I had double checked everything but yet you are indeed right, the forces of Rhun were defeated on the 25th March, that changes a lot of the story looks like I'm gonna have to make some big edits. I'll also sprinkle in some more evil men in there, I do my best to stick my the books but some of the minor details still escape me, thanks for pointing out the mistakes.

I'm looking forward to your more in depth thoughts.

EDIT: Done with the fixing, it seriously changes the story. I really need to pay more attention to dates.  :D

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