[en] The Prancing Pony > The Lord of the Rings
Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
Walküre:
How could we ever spend time with wisdom during our apprehensive wait for the patch, if not by debating crucial lore matters? ;)
I really like the idea, Necro, and I think the gates of the LOTR section should remain well open to anything that deals with similar on-topic subjects. That's why I decided to merge the topic with our beloved lore corner. On the facts presented and in regards of the eventualities which you have come up with, I most entirely agree with the kernel of your conclusions, as it seems to be a very reasonable of an explanation. I just wonder whether, taking advantage of a hiatus of Sauron's final operations, Galadriel and Elrond would be instead keen on leading their people to the westernmost shores of Middle-earth, to depart with the last grey ships.
Concerning Valinor, I also share the same opinion of Melkor. In the sense that Aman had indeed been previously separated from Arda, and I would thus infer that it would consequently be physically impossible for the Valar (as well as for any host) to put foot again on mortal soil. We could probably view this physical reasoning as a physical parallelism of the Ainur's will not to mingle themselves with the destiny of Middle-earth, lest additional grave wounds result for the World. And I would also add that, had they been capable of intervening, they would have nonetheless opted for non-intervention: if you think about it, Sauron's desire for the whole dominion of mortal lands is quite different from the ancient perspective of having Melkor (the Vala) rule over all those territories, if we also take into account that the latter was very likely to long for complete destruction of the Valar's primordial creation. A logic that therefore contemplated annihilation or vast-scale marring, whereas Sauron was maybe more interested in domination/tyranny, since he couldn't even dispose of his past master's devices, servants and powers. So, at the end of the day, I guess the Lords of the West would have eventually accepted the prospect of Sauron gaining control of Middle-earth; an enemy, by the way, whom they could have wiped out very easily.
Henceforth, as you can see, Melkor (dear attendee of this forum), there is something we agree on. This is something that ought to be celebrated xD
--- Zitat von: The_Necromancer0 am 28. Feb 2017, 04:23 ---Hopefully, I triggered a least a couple of you which should lead to an interesting debate, all under the watchful eye of the great moderator that lives on this forum, an elf-admin, of terrible power.
--- Ende Zitat ---
OakenShield224:
I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before). A couple of questions:
- Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.
- What would Sauron do about any elves and dwarves living in the east of Middle Earth?
- What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)? I'd imagine that most of Rohan would be burned down since they mainly have wooden buildings (from the film anyway) as well as Caras Galadhon. Isengard would be given the Mouth of Sauron. Would Sauron try to corrupt the rest (in a similar way to Minas Ithil, Cirith Ungol and the Black Gate) or would he try to destroy any trace of them?
Melkor Bauglir:
--- Zitat --- - Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I doubt, he'd have achieved anything. Radagast failed at his mission in his own way (basically stopped caring about the fate of Middle Earth and turned to animals or the wild), thus since even Gandalf the White is inferior to Sauron with the One, what match is Radagast to the power of Mordor?
--- Zitat --- - What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)?
--- Ende Zitat ---
I'm not sure if this applies to everyone of those places, but why not expand your base of operation? ;) In general, Sauron turned out to be pretty practical, and these fortresses often control their general vicinity: Minas Tirith basically controls the mid-point of the Anduin (considering he has access to Minas Morgul, Osgiliath and Cair Andros), Dol Amroth controls the fiefdoms of Gondor as well as giving him total control over the lower-part of the Anduin (again considering he has Umbar) AS WELL as grating him another entry point into Gondor (besides Cair Andros & Osgiliath).
Erebor is like the only fortress in the north of Middle Earth as well as the best place for a slave fortress for all the Dwarves and Elves of the north. I guess, the ressources are pretty rich, since the Dwarves chose to build their main kingdom over there. This also basically answers the fate of the dwarves and elves of the north (at least of Mirkwood).
Helm's Deep he might actually demolish, since it rivals Isengard's position and Isengard is the best fortress to rule over Rohan and Dunland, also giving access to Eriador. On the other hand, the Hornburg is incredibly usefull for him, since he has direct control over the mountains and the people of Rohan living there. (Remember the battles at the fords of Isen, it was mainly Isengard's strategic location that granted Saruman victory there.)
Rivendell and Mithlond he'd probably destroy. Sauron can rule northern Eriador from Fornost, Carn Dûm, the Etten-??? (what's their name in english?). Also, both are very holy places, he has no use for, also considering, Eriador is pretty empty and I'm not even sure if at least Mithlond is a real fortress. Actually, Isengard might even be enough, but since evil spirits still exist in the north, why not reestablish Angmar? He then basically sandwiches Eriador between Dunland under Isengard's control and Angmar. Possibly add Fornost and Weathertop and the north is secured, once their resistance is crushed. (Which shouldn't be strong to begin with: Saruman's men are still occupying half of the Shire and the Dunedain are all wiped out, since Sauron won at the Black Gate.)
Actually, I'd like to talk about the Lord of the Nine. Would Sauron be able to resurrect him? I mean, his body is destroyed, and he is still originally a human. It's not a fallen Ainu like Sauron who can form another dark body when he has access to the One.
However, it's still the master ring, so he might still be able to revive him OR (which I find more probable) create a new one what he should definitely be able to do, since he has the Master Ring. Actually, and I know this is just speculation, but why not give the ring to some of his most glorious human servants like the Mouth of Sauron?
Since they are all crazy for power anyways, that could very well happen. And I believe there could be some candidates, remember, the character of e.g. Gothmog is very unknown in the books, I doubt he'd turn out to be an orc. (Probably either a Nazgûl or another evil man. What do the linguists know about the origins of this name?)
I mean, don't get me wrong: Sauron not having access to his most deadliest servant is immaterial to his victory! It should only slow him down, although considering I absolutely ADORE the concept of the Nazgûl (in my opinion Tolkiens only great villains!), I'd be eager to see the Witchking in action while Sauron has got the One! xD
Now, the funny thing is, as much as I'd like to write something, I can't think of anything... The point is, Sauron with the Ring (considering all the power he has already collected in the WotR) is so much stronger than any opposing force, it's basically Mordor steamrolling over everything!
There might be some brave resistance, but after that Mordor's shadow would wipe this memory and embrace Middle Earth in darkness and desperation, Sauron's central theme. I mean, it's hard to remember, how brave your king or whatever fought if he a) is dead, b) desecrated and c) you're living in slavery, so don't stand there reasoning and get back to work you lazy maggot! ;) Some elves might end up lucky and make it to the Grey Havens, but after they are gone, it's Sauron for breakfast, lunch and dinner and nobody will be able to break his reign. So in a way, there is nothing to say really: It's gonna be first a slaughter and than just cold, dark nothingness untill either Middle Earth is a spoiled wasteland or Sauron reaches the industrial age and starts launching nuclear rockets at Valinor^^ ;)
You know what, the last sentance was obviously a joke, but coming to think about it, it bears in interesting development:
Following the books, Mordor is the most modern faction in the WotR, having access to gunpowder / mines (since they blow up parts of the Rammas in the siege of MT), and having developt sort of an industry in Gorgoroth. This theme is mostly known for Isengard, because that's their movie element and for the sake of uniqueness, it can't be Mordor's theme to. Yet, in the books, Saruman's only achievement is him creating a mix between orcs and humans and giving it a fancy name, while most of his inventions are actually copied from Mordor / Sauron.
What makes this interesting to me, is obviously the question: How much would Sauron f*** up the mystic realm of Middle Earth using the spoiled part of fairly modern technology after achieving total victory? I mean, he has all tools to his disposal, and while not really needing them anymore, his greed and malice might make him use these devices just to collect more power for powers sake.
Seriously, considering the basic theme of Tolkien's good guys is restoring lost glory, the themes of evil differ quite a lot between Morgoth whose theme is corruption and spoiling of good works (Melkor has still a creative element for some parts) while Sauron's theme also reaches into the theme of advances in weaponry and surpassing his master. His works on trolls (Olog-Hai) as well as on the big uruks of Mordor show a lot of refinement -yet not in the creative sense of good (crafting beautiful objects mostly without an actual reason), but rather in the spirit of perfecting weapons and causing more death & destruction. On that note, Middle Earth might end up as a wasteland for all of Sauron's twisted inventions.
--- Zitat ---Henceforth, as you can see, Melkor (dear attendee of this forum), there is something we agree on. This is something that ought to be celebrated xD
--- Ende Zitat ---
Run! Everybody run! The end of the world is approaching! :D
Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Walküre:
--- Zitat von: OakenShield224 am 28. Feb 2017, 17:53 ---I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before). A couple of questions:
- Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.
- What would Sauron do about any elves and dwarves living in the east of Middle Earth?
- What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)? I'd imagine that most of Rohan would be burned down since they mainly have wooden buildings (from the film anyway) as well as Caras Galadhon. Isengard would be given the Mouth of Sauron. Would Sauron try to corrupt the rest (in a similar way to Minas Ithil, Cirith Ungol and the Black Gate) or would he try to destroy any trace of them?
--- Ende Zitat ---
1. I doubt Radagast could have posed a very worrying threat to Sauron. The Istar had already forgotten the purpose of his mission when the War of the Ring broke out. We can therefore assume he would have had nearly all his powers severely diminished by that time (the resurgence of Sauron).
2. Men often fell prey of his devices and deceits, resulting in them being easily enslaved and ultimately tamed. On the other hand, I don't think the Dark Lord would reserve the same 'courteous' treatment to Elves and Dwarves, given the endurance of these races against magic and the Evil in general. I would thus say that he would be likely to opt for a complete extermination of such people (and it sounds really terrible!).
3. That's a really interesting topic: would Sauron have decided to lay waste to anything made by his opponents, or would he have instead twisted those creations and corrupted their inner essence? Just to connect with the previous point about his cruelty towards Elves and Dwarves, I think he would have annihilated all of their memories, whereas the mighty craftsmanship of Men would have been the sole to serve the new master in a new (marred) fashion: it's an aspect that symbolises the will of Sauron to rule over all Men, as their only king (the title he was known as in the Second Age, when this very boastful act of his caused the wrath of the last king of Númenor).
The_Necromancer0:
About Sauron and the conquered fortress:
In my opinion, he would most likely destroy everything elf related: Grey Havens, Rivendell, Lothlorien, ect... However, Sauron may be evil but he is not dumb (apart from that whole not having a door on Mount Doom), he would use the mines of the Dwarves to dig for precious materials which would have allowed him to keep his war machine going. He might have also moved the library of Rivendell for personal use although I think this one is less likely.
DieWalkure is probably right, it is more likely that the elves would make their way for the Grey Havens hastily as opposed to sending their people into a hopeless war. I wonder if the elves of Lorien would be able to make their way there safely or if the trip would be a constant battle against all foul things that have felt Sauron's power in addition with the Mordor host tailing them closely.
Looking back at all the debate that's been going on, it has now become much clearer to me why they feared him finding the One Ring. The war was already gong pretty badly for the Free People but it seems regaining the one would be catastrophic, making the rest of the war completely one side with very little challenge. Just like Melkor said, basically Mordor steamrolling everything.
I'd be interesting to know whether or not once the war is over whether or not Sauron would have followed a path similar to this world's technological advancements. Eventually discovering things like electricity, nuclear power, ...
--- Zitat ---I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before).
--- Ende Zitat ---
I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired th... I mean what, what now?
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