[en] The Prancing Pony > The Lord of the Rings

Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

<< < (15/49) > >>

Adamin:

--- Zitat von: Die Heilige Walküre am  8. Dez 2015, 15:41 ---Can I just say that I profoundly and significantly appreciate and like this thread and the relative discussions?  :)
lore debates are like 'vital nourishment' for me  :D

--- Ende Zitat ---

Couldn't agree more. ^^

As for the rest:
:D

Adamin:

--- Zitat von: CragLord am 12. Dez 2015, 02:49 ---[...] and I agree that Nimloth white tree symbol from  Númenorean's shields of second age (and from Lotr prologe) [...]

Concerning symbol of white tree, we probably have one thing to think about.
In general, in movies, we have symbol of Nimloth, which is white tree of  Númenor
--- Ende Zitat ---

That is actually a misconception in my eyes. There is no White Tree of Númenor.

At least no symbolic tree. Of course there is Nimloth, the literal white tree that grew in the King's Court in Númenor. But there is no reference in the books to him having any greater meaning or influence on the daily lives or political decisions of the Númenorians. It seems to be just one of the many gifts from the elves of Tol Eressëa. Nimloths main influence on Númenor seems to be this: It smelled pretty.  ;)

It is not before Isildur steals one of its fruit (getting mortally wounded), grows a seedling out of it and takes it with him to Middle-earth, that the White Tree gets symbolic meaning. A symbol for the Faithful, the men who stayed Elf-friends, even though that was forbidden and punished in (later) Númenor. The Men who fled from Númenor before its Downfall and founded new Kingdoms in Middle-earth.
The White Tree only has meaning for these Men after Númenor.


Just a quick reminder for context:
The Seven Ships of the Faithful, which fled from Númenor before its destruction, split up. Elendil and his crew landed in the north of Middle-earth and founded Arnor. His sons Isildur and Anárion with their crews landed in the south of Middle-earth and founded Gondor. Isildur lived in the eastern part and built Minas Ithil (Morgul), Anárion lived in the western part and built Minas Anor (Tirith); both met in Osgilliath and ruled together.
All these Men adapted the Name Dúnedain (Men of the West in Sindarin). Elendil ruled as High King of the Dúnedain, so he was technically ruling over both Arnor and Gondor, but left the south mainly to his sons.


And the movies actually do not contradict this. The Soldiers from the Last Alliance in the prologe were not Númenoreans. In heritage maybe, but not in citizenship. Númenor sank under the Sea in 3319 SA (Second Age), while the Last Alliance fought in 3434 SA, more than 100 Years later.
So the Soldiers we see were already Dúnedain, people from Arnor and Gondor. It makes sense that they use the symbols of the Faithful. Seven Stars for the seven ships, Elendils high crown, and the white tree. And it makes sense that they used only one coat of arms then, because the Last Alliance was formed by Elendil.

Though I think (and this is purely my head-canon ^^), that the addition of the white tree would have been Isildurs idea. Since the Trees are much stronger tied to Gondor, it seems like an act of representing the individual capability of the southern realm. Elendils Crown seems like a perfectly fine symbol for Arnor, but the white tree is something that every gondorian soldier could have identified with.

CragLord:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am 12. Dez 2015, 10:32 ---That is actually a misconception in my eyes. There is no White Tree of Númenor.

At least no symbolic tree. Of course there is Nimloth, the literal white tree that grew in the King's Court in Númenor. But there is no reference in the books to him having any greater meaning or influence on the daily lives or political decisions of the Númenorians. It seems to be just one of the many gifts from the elves of Tol Eressëa. Nimloths main influence on Númenor seems to be this: It smelled pretty.  ;)

It is not before Isildur steals one of its fruit (getting mortally wounded), grows a seedling out of it and takes it with him to Middle-earth, that the White Tree gets symbolic meaning. A symbol for the Faithful, the men who stayed Elf-friends, even though that was forbidden and punished in (later) Númenor. The Men who fled from Númenor before its Downfall and founded new Kingdoms in Middle-earth.
The White Tree only has meaning for these Men after Númenor.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Well, I think there is possibility for misconception.  :)
I completely understand your post and agree with one part of it, but I disagree with you about simbolic meaning of Nimloth.
I agree that there is not reference in books about  influence on the daily lives or political decisions of the Númenorians. Except information that tree :

--- Zitat --- Its blossoms appeared as the Sun set, and their perfume filled the night in Númenor's royal city.
--- Ende Zitat ---
But Nimloth is symbol of identity for Númenoreans. It was gift from Eldar with reason.
First King of Númenor as descendant (son) of Eärendil get new place for his people (Númenor) as a gift for Elven friends. That was gift from Valar. Nimloth was gift from Eldar, and it was clear symbol of identity for those people. They all were Elf-friends in beginning.
What happened some period "just before" sinking was results of sick minds and Sauron influence. Nimloth still was symbol of identity, in this time for remaining Elf-friends, and these were  Amandil, Lord of Andúnië and leader of the Faithful Númenóreans and his people. Ofc there were Elendil his son and his sons etc.
I wanted to say, in my opinion (and from lore info) Nimloth was always symbol of identitiy for them and during that dark times its meaning was probably at highest peak and then it was refferning to Lord of Andúnië  and his people.
From that aspect using of Numloth symbol on Shields during Last Alliance was pretty normal thing. First, Sauron was responsible for destruction of Númenór, Elendil as leader of Faithful was still alive, so using of this Nimloth symbol was pretty reasonable. To show enemy that he is failed to kill all of blessed man and Elf-friends from Númenór.
And Nimloth symbol in look is pretty different from symbol of white tree of Gondor I think.
So after death of Elendil, and later after division of united Kindoms of Dúnedain, they start with using of different symbols for each kingdoms etc. Simply to underline maybe that different heirs are on throne etc.


--- Zitat von: Adamin am 12. Dez 2015, 10:32 ---Just a quick reminder for context:
The Seven Ships of the Faithful, which fled from Númenor before its destruction, split up. Elendil and his crew landed in the north of Middle-earth and founded Arnor. His sons Isildur and Anárion with their crews landed in the south of Middle-earth and founded Gondor. Isildur lived in the eastern part and built Minas Ithil (Morgul), Anárion lived in the western part and built Minas Anor (Tirith); both met in Osgilliath and ruled together.
All these Men adapted the Name Dúnedain (Men of the West in Sindarin). Elendil ruled as High King of the Dúnedain, so he was technically ruling over both Arnor and Gondor, but left the south mainly to his sons.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Yes all of this is true. One note, there were nine ships not seven (according to some papers and Tolkien gateway info)
Seven is number correlated mainly to seven palantirs which they gain from the elves. ;)


--- Zitat von: Adamin am 12. Dez 2015, 10:32 ---And the movies actually do not contradict this. The Soldiers from the Last Alliance in the prologe were not Númenoreans. In heritage maybe, but not in citizenship. Númenor sank under the Sea in 3319 SA (Second Age), while the Last Alliance fought in 3434 SA, more than 100 Years later.
So the Soldiers we see were already Dúnedain, people from Arnor and Gondor. It makes sense that they use the symbols of the Faithful. Seven Stars for the seven ships, Elendils high crown, and the white tree. And it makes sense that they used only one coat of arms then, because the Last Alliance was formed by Elendil.

Though I think (and this is purely my head-canon ^^), that the addition of the white tree would have been Isildurs idea. Since the Trees are much stronger tied to Gondor, it seems like an act of representing the individual capability of the southern realm. Elendils Crown seems like a perfectly fine symbol for Arnor, but the white tree is something that every gondorian soldier could have identified with.

--- Ende Zitat ---

I agree with the most of things from this part.
You have right when you say that they are Dúnedain, not Númenoreans, but that is only maybe to underline difference in place where they lived (used in this way in comment). I mean, Dúnedain as name was correlated to Elf-friends. Same correalation with new name, Man of the West.
I want to say, during rule of Elendil (and maybe his sons), in my opinion, usage of that symbols on shields in movies was one of the best things I have seen.
In my opinion, that is symbol of Numloth, not one of Gondors trees in prologe of movies. And as I have said it is the highest symbol of identity of Elendil and his people no matter of place and time where they live. :)
Seven (eight pointed stars by Eldar notes or five points stars by Tolkien first sketch) was corelated mainly on seven palantirs which were also gift from Elves to Elf-friends.
And winged crown of Elendil which is correlated to Elendil and later to royal ruling rights of his heirs. So two part of that Shield general symbol were completely about identity of Elendil and his people (Elf-friends) and one was to note about his ruling rights and heritage. :)
So until Elendil was alive Numloth was there as offical part of general symbol.
After Battle of Dagorlad, when Elendil was dead (and also Anárion died during siege of Barad-dûr), Isildur went for Arnor to rule and Meneldil son of Anárion firt started to use current shape of Gondorian white tree with Elednils winged crown as official symbol for Gondor royal members. So with his rule current shape of Gondorian white tree became official for Gondor.
Meneldil was very serious in order to be independent in Gondor, he was also a bit in fear that Isildur's heirs will rule over Gondor part of united kingdom, because Isildur was also a High King over both kingdoms as his father, and as older son he left for Arnor. So I presume this symbol change was one of steps in order to create some kind independency of house of Anárion and in order to make this house main in ruling term over Gondor.
At the end I really don't have problems with current symbols of Arnor in game, just wanted to say that Numloth symbol was probably used by Elendil and later was replaced by members of house of Anárion with white tree of Minas Tirith.
But its usage in Arnor by royal members also could be lore justified. After all, Arnor was part where Elendil rule in the first place, no matter he was High king of united kingdom.
As, I have said, I really don't have anything against current symbol for Arnor, I think it is very nice and unique.

PS. One more note, there is some misuderstanding about crown of Elendil in my mind...
Currenly I find it very lore wise stuff for Arnor, but on Tolkien gate way, there was information against that a bit. It is said that crown of Elendil was kept in Gondor and it was heritage of kings of Gondor: 
Link
At the end you have said that you united Elendilmir with Ring of Barahir and Sceptre of Annúminas as unique symbol for Arnor.
How there is probably not good graphical presentation of Elendilmir (which represent 2 star shaped gems set on mithril fillets which Elendil wore  on his brow in place of a crown, as did his son Isildur after him) you present it (visually) as winged crown of Elendil ( or I got confused? ).
And this winged crown somehow by Tolkiend gateway info presents heritage of kings of Gondor. That is maybe small graphical error. Just asking and checking in general. :)

Regards,
CragLord

Adamin:

--- Zitat von: CragLord am 13. Dez 2015, 20:16 ---And as I have said it is the highest symbol of identity of Elendil and his people no matter of place and time where they live. :)

--- Ende Zitat ---

That is exactly what I was trying to say. ^^

The White tree is a symbol of Elendils (and Amandils) people, of the Faithful Elf-friends. They are what all of Númenor should have been. But that is exactly what makes them special and why they need a specific symbol for themselves.
They are not "everyday Númenoreans".

The original Númenoreans were all Elf-friends, true, and they got Nimloth as a gift, also true. But it was one gift among many, not the most relevant one, just the most remembered one (and that only because of Isildur).

That's why in my opinion it is justified to differentiate the tree symbol for all of Númenor and for the Faithful Dúnedain. Of course the Númenoreans could have used Nimloth as a symbol, but i think there is no reference that they should have.

But I guess this is another "head canon" question. If you see Nimloth as a relevant focus in Númenor, there is little that I can say against that. ^^


--- Zitat ---One note, there were nine ships not seven (according to some papers and Tolkien gateway info)
Seven is number correlated mainly to seven palantirs which they gain from the elves.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Ah you're right. I'm always mixing that one up. It's basically the seven ships that carried the seven stones...  [ugly]

And yeah, we kindaaa cheated with the crown being the Elendilmir this time. xD
But then again you could say that the crown design from the movie does not depict the right crown anyway (as seen in your link). So I guess it's more a Potato-Potata thing... ;)

CragLord:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am 13. Dez 2015, 21:56 ---That is exactly what I was trying to say. ^^

The White tree is a symbol of Elendils (and Amandils) people, of the Faithful Elf-friends. They are what all of Númenor should have been. But that is exactly what makes them special and why they need a specific symbol for themselves.
They are not "everyday Númenoreans".

The original Númenoreans were all Elf-friends, true, and they got Nimloth as a gift, also true. But it was one gift among many, not the most relevant one, just the most remembered one (and that only because of Isildur).

That's why in my opinion it is justified to differentiate the tree symbol for all of Númenor and for the Faithful Dúnedain. Of course the Númenoreans could have used Nimloth as a symbol, but i think there is no reference that they should have.

But I guess this is another "head canon" question. If you see Nimloth as a relevant focus in Númenor, there is little that I can say against that. ^^

--- Ende Zitat ---

I understand that they were perfect example of definition of the Faithful Elf-friends,
and they needed some special symbols to define them among other Númenoreans, but they are only one who survived. In that cource of events I see usage of Nimploth symbol as justified one. They used that symbol on sails of their ships also, I think they keep it for sure during Elendil rule.
Concerning special symbols they had special symbols for them themselves (Elendil has special symbol for himself etc (Not speaking about crown)). But Nimploth symbol was genereal one with palantirs "stars".

Concerning gifts, they presented the most important ones as part of their "official" symbol (Nimloth and palantirs). One of reasons was probably because these gifts have great value for them and they could be presented elegantly as symbols.
Concening other gifts, can you name some of them? Or suggest their symbol representation. :) (I have forgot for specific other gifts, I know there were some, but can't remeber them as particular things as Nimloth or palantirs)

Concerning reference about Numenoreas using Nimloth, you have right probably, or I haven't find it still. :)
I just wanted to point on situation that Elendil used this symbol (on sails of nine ships from Lore), so he probably kept as part of general one later in ME. And meaning of that symbol was pretty clear to him, I think we don't need reference about it (concerning usage in ME)
So in general, there is no reference of general Numenoreans using this symbol.
There is reference for Eledil used it during escape (Isildur also almost died trying to save that heritage), so I think it is logical to conclude that Eledil probably keep it as general one. Later (with separation of kingdoms) it was replaced as general one, but it could be used as Royal one with crown for Eledils heirs in Arnor (In Gondor Meneldil replaced it with Gondorian Tree, it was act of independency in one way). So its replacement in genenal was result of separation of two realms. That's all.


--- Zitat von: Adamin am 13. Dez 2015, 21:56 ---Ah you're right. I'm always mixing that one up. It's basically the seven ships that carried the seven stones...  [ugly]

And yeah, we kindaaa cheated with the crown being the Elendilmir this time. xD
But then again you could say that the crown design from the movie does not depict the right crown anyway (as seen in your link). So I guess it's more a Potato-Potata thing... ;)

--- Ende Zitat ---

I agree, it is situation Potato-Potata. :D
Have you tried with presentation of Elendilmir from launcher (button run mod) :P
I think that presentation is maybe the closest one to Elendilmir.

Regards,
CragLord

Navigation

[0] Themen-Index

[#] Nächste Seite

[*] Vorherige Sete