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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am  2. Dez 2015, 22:34 ---
--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  2. Dez 2015, 21:39 ---Lothlórien is a Sindar-based realm, with a solid and ancient Sindarin 'ruling class', of which the Prince Celeborn is the apex.
So, taking for granted that the kingdom of Doriath is definitely the most famous and legendary Sindarin realm in this woodland kin's History, a Sindarin Horn might be the wisest and most conceptual choice, in my opinion.
--- Ende Zitat ---

This one caught my interest though.

What is the source for Lothlorien having a Sindarin ruling class in the Third Age? I don't remember specifically reading of other (blonde) Elvenlords of Lothlorien, besides Celeborn and Galadriel. Are they appearing as characters in the Lord of the Rings?

I always thought of Galadriel and Celeborn as being the only fair Elves in Lorien.


--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  2. Dez 2015, 21:39 ---While, although a Noldorin Horn for Galadriel could be logically legitimate, it would infer, I guess, that Galadriel is a 'common' political and military ruler of Lórien, as the other Elven Lords, and that the Noldorin warfare tradition is particularly strong and still present in Lothlórien.

Therefore, as I wrote above, Galadriel is indeed the leader of Lothlórien, but she's a very special exception.
The 'Angelic Exception' I explained above  (**)

--- Ende Zitat ---

Galadriel not being Loriens common political ruler though is something I definetly don't see in the Lore, Val.

I mean: Is there EVER a moment in the books where Celeborn is asked something that didn't go through Galadriel first? xD
Also is Lothlorien ever mentioned without Galadriel as its center?

You said yourself some time ago, that Galadriel is the only thing that keeps Lorien shielded against Sauron. She is actively fighting, even if it's not physically.
Also Galadriel is in the White Council, THE most politicial group in Middle-earth. Celeborns membership is not so sure, and not as relevant.

You might have mixed them up with Thingol and Melian. There I see exactly what you described: The man actively ruling and the woman being the wise, divine power in the background.
Galadriel and Celeborn are very different from that though, because Galadriel is taking the Action and doing Stuff, while Celeborn... not so much.

So while I think you are right with the assumption that Celeborn was the military commander of Lothlorien, the political supreme rule and the image of Lorien are definetly tightly in Galadriels hands.


--- Ende Zitat ---

Ok, I think that it's time to give the poor Adamin the answer he longed for pretty much time  xD

1. My usage of the expression 'ruling class' meant that the leading figures of Lothlórien (and thus the oldest and most experienced ones of the lore of Arda, as it often happens in the Elven society) were mainly Sindarin, to reach eventually the apex with Celeborn (a Sindarin Prince of Doriath) and our Lady Galadriel (a Noldorin Princess of Tirion).

There are certainly other Sindar in Lothlórien apart from Celeborn and Galadriel (even though she is technically half Telerin, but not Sindarin as this is a subgroup of the Teleri).
Since I'm not as good and efficient as you in finding the exact quotations from the direct source, and since I don't feel like scrolling down pages and pages, I will rely on my memory and head canon  :P

In the Silmarillion, I remember (and it's a quite reliable memory) Tolkien says that, after the Destruction of Doriath, a branch of the refugees of Doriath didn't follow the majority in their flight to the Havens of Sirion, they chose instead to pass through the Blue Mountains and leave Beleriand for the wild yet safer lands of the East, which had been previously populated by the Nandor that had left the main group of the Teleri already in the Years of the Trees, along with some Avari that decided to move to western territories from the ancestral Cuiviénen.
Galadriel and Celeborn led this branch of refugees and reached the green lands of the ancient Eriador, and some went even beyond.

At this point, Tolkien explains that these Sindar merged with the already-existing communities of Nandor to create culturally-mixed 'realms', in which, though, the Sindarin minority always took (with no violence at all or wicked intentions) a leading role, because the Nandor were fascinated by the more 'advanced' knowledge of Doriath and the legendary prestige of the royal members of the Court of Elwë and Melian; the Silvan Elves voluntarily opted for a pacific renunciation of their complete independence to form with those higher Elves realms that would have been remembered in the lore of Middle Earth (as if the Eldar were naturally attracted to any High Elf and desired its company or, better, ruling authority).

This is a recurrent phenomenon that we can clearly see if we consider the Kings and the royal Courts of the Woodland Realm of Mirkwood or Lothlórien itself.
Both these realms were ruled by Sindarin royal families that had established themselves upon the previous Silvan cultures and had their roots in Doriath; in these two cases, Oropher and his son Thranduil, Amdír and Amroth.
So that the arrival of Celeborn and Galadriel in Lothlórien could be seen as one of the last examples of this consolidated 'tradition'.

2. Regarding Galadriel, maybe I didn't explain myself in the best way possible, but what I wanted to point out is that, as I wrote, she is not the common political leader of the kind which we can see in other realities in Middle Earth like Gondor or Rohan.
But, saying that doesn't absolutely mean that she is not a key political figure at all; it's quite an intricate matter, since she is an exception concerning many aspects of hers and her realm.

The common military/political leader I referred to could be characterised by certain actions that aren't actually really conformed to Galadriel.
In fact, it's Celeborn himself who led the army of Lothlórien across the Anduin and took Dol Guldur after the assaults of the same dark fortress (and this is the military aspect); or when Celeborn again met with Thranduil in the deep and eventually purified Mirkwood, renaming the realm and dividing it between themselves (a very 'political' action).
What Galadriel does, I believe, is really exceptional, on another level; with definitely deeper meanings and intentions, as her ethereal nature often hints at in the books via descriptions of unreadable thoughts in her sensational mind or visions that she has while she recalls ancient memories or tries to foresee what will be.

This can be obviously linked to her powers.
Yes, I wrote that (even though it's Tolkien himself who stated it  :P) she was the source and the reason of Lothlórien's endurance through Time and perils, and I would never question that.
I think that my reasoning about political roles doesn't contradict this at all; Galadriel defended too her realm as many other political leaders, but she did it in a deeply different way.
To put it in simple words: she did everything pretty much on her sole own  :)

As she explains to Frodo, the bows of the brave Galadhrim could have never shielded Lórien from such an evil malice (soldiers and weapons, the common 'arsenal' of the average political leaders).
She assured alone the integrity her realm with her Magic and Nenya (easing obviously the work of her soldiers), just like she walked and made the walls of Dol Guldur crumble in front of her Majesty and purified it, after the army of Celeborn had secured the area.
Just like Melian created alone all the magical defences of Doriath, and doomed the realm's fate after her departure from Middle Earth.

Regarding exactly Thingol and Melian, my comparison was basically meant to underline the analogies between those two ruling couples.
Especially, both Melian and Galadriel theoretically don't belong by nature to their own realms (though deeply they could be bound to them), since a Princess of Tirion and even a Maia from Valinor are something beyond the Sindarin core that Thingol and Celeborn embody in Doriath and Lothlórien.
That's why I think that Melian and Galadriel are an exception in their own environments, like two Angels (and Melian is truly an Angel) among 'mortals'; they thus protect and 'rule' their realms in a much more wider and deeper meaning compared to other characters, and they don't naturally belong to the cultural background of the place which they live in.

Last, I would say that I wouldn't give the White Council a so 'active' role and importance in the geopolitics of Middle Earth.
Let me explain: I know for sure that the White Council kept a watchful eye on Middle Earth for centuries, and that it was even forced to use military power too once, in the attack of Dul Guldur.
But, linking this to the main theme of my previous considerations, can we really consider the White Council a common political agent, entitled to maintain an actual order in Arda with a broadly recognised role and authority?
It was the ensemble of the wisest and most powerful beings in the World at that time, but it was also definitely 'elitist' and a bit 'aristocratic', since it indeed had the purpose of preserving the order of the World, but it clearly didn't have the active and leading role of Gondor as the paladin of the Free People against Sauron; secrecy was in fact an important element of the Council, even though we must also say that the 'elites' in Middle Earth are really elites, since they are superior beings by nature (there isn't thus any negative connotation in the word 'elitist', if we refer to the inner majesty and authority of Galadriel, Elrond or the Istari).

Therefore, the role of the White Council was probably more spiritual and symbolic rather than actual, since it was not able (also because it didn't practically have the possibilities and the needed strength) to prevent the return of Sauron and of other hostile characters, and, not unsurprisingly, there was not any representation in itself of neither Gondor nor Rohan, although we know that they were exactly the Humans who would have had the 'duty' to defeat the Evil and take control of the future of the Middle Earth, while the Elves would have ineluctably faded away if they had sailed to Aman or had hidden themselves in remote places throughout the World.
But, I don't obviously want to undermine or question the great importance and authority that the White Council had in the Third Age.
I'm just very interested into possible speculations or insightful opinions that can be gathered about geopolitics, Authority and leading figures of Arda.

It seems that almost everything regarding Arda can be an open question or debate  :P
I'm looking forward to your or others' opinions  ;)

Long live long lore discussions  :D

VectorMaximus:
Hello Edain Community!

Today I'm interested in starting a discussion on the 3 elven rings of power. They are some of my favorite parts of the lore, and I hope we can all enjoy a good discussion on them.



Note; because the fact that there isn't a huge amount of material on the rings, some of the things I say are my take on them - it might not necessarily be canonical, but I'm extrapolating for what I know of the lore.

Their history - The 3 were forged by Celebrimbor in Eregion after SA 1500, after Annatar (Sauron in disguise) came among the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the smiths of Eregion. They were forged in secret by Celebrimbor, and were his masterworks, designed to preserve Middle-Earth and recreate the Undying Lands there.

After Sauron's betrayal was made clear, Celebrimbor, at the urging of Galadriel, sent the 3 away from Eregion. Narya and Vilya, the rings of fire and air were sent to Erenion Gil-Galad, High-King of the Noldor, who reigned in Lindon. Nenya, the ring of water (also called the ring of adamant) was sent to Galadriel, who would, as we all know, settle in Lothlorien. Nenya passed with her to the west, and Lothlorien faded without the power of the ring of water. The ring of Fire would pass first to Cirdan, Lord of the Havens, and then to Gandalf when he came to Middle-Earth, and with him it would pass into the west. Gil-Galad entrusted Vilya to his Herald, Elrond, who would use its power to nurture Rivendell throughout the 3rd age, till the power of the 3 was ended, and he passed from Mortal Lands. Rivendell endured for a time in the 4rth age, but it would eventually pass away, as was the fate of all the elven realms in Arda.

Powers: The strengths of the rings were determined by which race it was bound. The 9 rings of men gave long life and incredible powers to their wielders, for men above all else "desired power". The dwarven rings did not give long life, but rather the ability to detect gold and precious minerals. Legend says that each of the 7 hordes of the Dwarf -Lords were built upon a single ring. In time all these hordes and the rings were consumed by dragon-fire, save 3 that Sauron recovered. What happened to them after Barad-Dur fell no story tells, but I believe that their power too passed from the world. And last of the great rings were the 3 Elven rings. The mighty among the elves had no desire for power or for riches, but rather, they desired a realm eternal in Middle-Earth. This dream in particular, was dear to the hearts of the Noldor. (Discussion question - the 3, being so loosely bound to the one, do you think that if the One had not been forged, would have been able to make said eternal realms, and heal the marring, as they might have done? For if they were never bound to the One, their power would never have failed, and the elven realms would have long endured in Middle-Earth, though perhaps they would have faded after many years.)

However, what I find intruiging about the 3 is that while they all have the same elements as the others to a degree (protection, healing, and inspiration, combined with the feeling of timelessness), they each have an 'emphasis' in how they weather the ages.

Narya, ring of fire - Narya inspires those around itself and its bearer, inspiring them to continue living, continue fighting, no matter what may come. There are no descriptions of Mithlond while Cirdan wore Narya, so I cannot say what affect Narya would have on the society of Mithlond. Through force of will does Narya weather time.

Nenya, ring of water - Nenya's power lies in protection, but with that protection comes isolation. Nenya shuts the world out, creating an impenetrable bastion where the passage of time is stopped, and interaction with the outside world is slowed to a near halt, giving those inside Lothlorien an impression of timelessness. This is shown in Lothlorien being the most 'mystical' and isolated of the elven realms. Haldir's brothers Rumil and Orophin cannot speak Westron, and I doubt they are alone in this regard. And they are the wardens, responsible for patrolling the borders, so if anyone should know Westron it should be them. In comparison, most elves in the realms of Imladris, Mirkwood, and Mithlond seem to know the common tongue. Narya weathers time by protecting and creating an environment onto itself, which does not interact with the outside world.

Vilya, the ring of air - Vilya's power is its ability to heal, both body and soul. Rivendell becomes known as a great sanctuary for healing, and is known for its peace and tranquility. In addition, elves of all kindreds (though admittedly majority of them are Noldor) live and contribute to Imladris, healing old divisions to live together in harmony. Vilya stands time not by isolation (though Rivendell is slightly isolationist, its nothing compared to Lothlorien) or by pushing forward with raw determination (as Narya's realm may have done), but by resting in peace and tranquility, healing the hurts the world inflicts through long reflection and coming to terms with what has happened.

In a way, each of the elven rings embodies a piece of Aman's power. Narya embodies the ability of those of the Undying Lands to move forward from Middle-Earth, though they may be sad. Nenya gives form to the isolation and timelessness of the Undying lands. And lastly Vilya is the wellspring of healing that is in the Uttermost West, where no wound is so deep it cannot be healed. Now, obviously they all do all these things to an extent, but they obviously have a focus in a particular area. Vilya still gives protection, Nenya inspiration and Narya can still give healing, but they pale in comparison to the power of the other ring in that area.

Vilya "greatest" of the 3 - Vilya in LOTR is named as the greatest of the 3 elven rings of power. I thought long and hard about why this was. It was the ring of air, and could perhaps be tied to Manwe, who is king of the Valar and Sovereign-Steward of the world. But this left me dissatisfied. So, after thinking some more, this is my conclusion. The power of Vilya lies in healing. The Enemy, both Morgoth and Sauron were eventually corrupted till they could do naught but hate and destroy. And what is healing if not rejuvination and rebirth - the invert of destruction, the tool of the enemy? So the power to heal is greater then the power to destroy - a central theme in Tolkien, I think.

Which of the Elven rings do you believe is greatest (ignore Tolkien's statement about Vilya being greatest when you do this, cause otherwise there's no discussion! Just think about what you know of each of the rings, and which would you bear if you could.)?

I hope you all enjoyed my rambling,

VectorMaximus

Walküre:
Hi, VectorMaximus  :)
Welcome to the Lore section; it's always great seeing other people interested in the deep foundations of the game and, primarily, of the whole Tolkien's Legendarium!
This board is not currently the most visited of the forum, but I'm definitely sure that we will widen it in time with particular and involving debates  ;)


I will start with saying that this topic has always fascinated me, being obviously deeply intertwined with the destiny and the very mythology of the Noldor of Middle Earth (and of my favourite character, Galadriel), the main core that permeated the events of both the Second Age and the Third Age.

As we previously discussed in your Imladris suggestions thread, these mighty artefacts were conceived as a possible remedy for all the wounds that Arda had to suffer until that time (Second Age), which, by the way, had also partially been the consequences of the War of the Jewels in Beleriand started by the same exiled Noldor (even though the main responsible was obviously Morgoth); a War that inevitably and significantly fashioned the course of Time since the late Third Age and beyond (the consequences in the future caused by sins or faults are a very recurrent theme in most of Tolkien's production).

This is exactly the aspect I love the most about the Three Rings, since they were indeed meant to bring some stability in the World, and the Eldar had really profoundly good intentions, as they always desired the Good for Arda and tried to mend its imperfections according to the gifts granted them by Ilúvatar; but, I also feel kind of sad about it, everytime I think about how the Elves were consequently deceived by Sauron, who exactly twisted their desire and used it against them, fulfilling his final purpose of creating the only and true Master Ring.
The Eldar would have thus always regretted (until the End of Time) having unwillingly helped Sauron to achieve his goal (even though they eventually managed to create the Three as well, which would have kept the Evil at bay for many centuries later).

Speaking about the Three Rings, I like your considerations and agree almost with all of them.
It would indeed be a little bit reductive and diminishing attributing strict and separated powers and functions to the Three, while they all have, as you rightly wrote, similar traits (embodying each of them different aspects of the holy nature of the Undying Lands) on which they focus with different degrees of intensity depending on their own primary characteristics.

My favourite is Nenya, the Ring wielded by the mightiest Elf of the Third Age, and one of the mightiest ones in all the History of Arda.
I think that Nenya had the most 'physical' approach among the Three in the events of the War of the Ring; mixed with Galadriel's own Magic, it infused the whole realm of Lothlórien and directly prevented it from being defeated by multiple assaults from Dol Guldur, because Galadriel too confesses to Frodo that the sole bows and courage of the Galadhrim would have not been enough against the evil devices and plans of Sauron.

Nevertheless, I would agree as well with the fact that Vilya is the greatest among the Three.
Although it didn't have that 'physical role' I referred to in the War of the Ring, I believe that it is the one which reached almost perfectly the purpose of its existence.
Lórien was made timeless and sacred by Nenya, but it's still a realm characterised by a previous Sindarin culture and History.
Rivendell, instead, is truly said to have been made a holy sanctuary by the action of Vilya, always untouched and unaltered by Evil; a place in which all those qualities of Aman were mixed in the best outcome possible, recreating a true 'mortal reflection' of Eressëa, Eldamar or Valinor itself (the deepest desire of Celebrimbor).

VectorMaximus:
While I agree the white council isn't the most active political entity in middle-earth, I believe it is far more than a mere symbolic or spiritual organization either.

The known members of the white council -
-Erenion Gil-Galad (SA only, obviously)
-The Istari (Gandalf, Saruman, Radaghast, unsure of the Blue Wizards)
-Lady Galadriel
-Lord Elrond
-Cirdan, Lord of Mithlond
-Glorfindel of Gondolin

People I believe likely to be in the white council though not explicantly stated, for "other lords of the Eldar did join them".
-Celeborn (Lord of Lorien)
-Thranduil (King of the Woodland Realm)

I guess these two would be members of the council because of a few reasons. Celeborn is Galadriel's husband, and is a wise and powerful elf in his own right. Thranduil from the books I could see being a member, though his movie edition I could see creating friction in the council. He along with Radaghast would keep a watch on the east for the council, as well as having a vested interest in action against the darkness growing in the east (his realm being closest). In addition, the council already has the Lords of Mithlond and Imladris, as well as the Lady of Lorien. It would make sense to have Mirkwood, and round out the elven realms.

And so, while it is true the only 'direct' action that the council takes against Sauron is to assault Dolgul-Dur, I doubt it is its only function (coordinating the war against sauron, that is, though that was what it was made for undoubtedly). The council also serves as a forum and meeting place of the isolated Elven-Realms, where they can share intel, discuss any outstanding issues, etc. I imagine this is what the first White Council, arranged by Gil-Galad, was for. For those who don't know, the White Council is a lot older then some think. It first shows up in 'The History Galadriel and Celeborn', from the Unfinished Tales, so its canon is in question, but I take it as canon. This first council was called by Gil-Galad after the Sack of Eregion and the Founding of Imladris. It was determined at this meeting that Imladris would be the stronghold of the Noldor in Eriador outside Lindon, and Vilya was gifted to Elrond at this meeting as well. The meeting was also about what the elven realms could and should do now that Sauron had been pushed out of Eriador and back to Mordor. These collective actions, meetings, and intel sharing would eventually culminate in all the Elves of Middle-Earth fighting under the de-facto leadership of Gil-Galad in the Last Alliance.

Walküre:
Maybe I forgot to mention it: I am mainly focusing on the White Council in the Third Age, ruled by its chief Saruman, and its general role and essence in that same age, because the previous discussion indeed dealt primarily with that same period.
Therefore, it's true, the White Council of the Second Age could have easily had a more 'dynamic' approach, considering the fact that Elves were abysmally more prominent in those times and that the High King of the Noldor himself was alive.

Another personal note.
I usually refuse to view The History of Galadriel and Celeborn as canon, because I would be consequently forced to reject the idea of her following the other Noldorin Princes through Araman and, eventually, Helcaraxë, in what has probably been the hardest and most perilous journey of the Noldor themselves.
I don't want to go into details about that version (also because I was never really interested in it), but I personally believe that it makes Galadriel different, more 'docile' and innocent, erasing her feeling of guilt for having been part of the Rebellion of her kin (although with specific differences from her cousins) and having abandoned the Blessed Realm.

About the White Council, my post didn't really imply that the White Council didn't have any kind of significant 'consulting purposes' among the Wise.
I was pointing out its elitist element (and I already explained that I don't mean anything negative with this word), which leads it not to have that collective and leading role among the Free People (an attribution of Human kind, as the race destined to rule the World), or to have a part in the War of the Ring as an institution itself (because their members had different and personal roles in the War).

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