Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

• #225 von Walküre am 11 Jan, 2018 18:44
• Some speculations about a menacing and very mysterious enemy in the lore. Or, better, is he really an enemy in the most scholastic sense? A servant of the Evil?
  
  https://youtube.com/watch?v=vV3opfvFDpU
• #226 von OakenShield224 am 11 Jan, 2018 19:45
• The video mentions how the Watcher seems to be attracted to Frodo. There is a connection to the Orc Captain in Moria who seemed to go straight for Frodo (even knocking Boromir out of the way to get to him) and potentially with the Balrog (who hadn't shown much activity for years but woke to attack the Fellowship).
  
  It's interesting to consider something in this whole scenario. The Misty Mountains were raised by Morgoth to impede the Riding of Orome. Over the Three Ages, Orcs swarm over the mountains and also impede traversal over the land. Caradhras is portrayed as sentient entity that also impedes all traversal over the mountains. If you then add the fact that the Balrog lived in Moria, the Watchers (and other Nameless Things) lived around the mountains, both Angmar and Isengard were at the North and South of the mountain range respectively, and the two main realms of the "good" people here (Khazad Dum and Eregion) were destroyed, you can definitely see a connection.
• #227 von Walküre am 20 Jan, 2018 13:10
• I had already heard about those two interesting coincidences, if we may call them that. My personal opinion rests with the assumption that the novel, beside being a novel in itself and resembling also a chivalric romance of high culture (there were tons of them in Middle Age and the majority were set in fantastic scenarios), has also been inspired by the most common and canonical tales, in which correlations and coincidences (wanted or not) play a huge role. As for the true meaning of magic in Arda, I feel we will always be bound to find inexplicable references that the sole author could be able to unveil; but this is the greatest aspect of fairytales, in a way. Some riddles are very evocative just for the fact of remaining riddles.
  
  You bring well-thought reasonings to your arguments. The Misty Mountains have seldom dwelt in the memory of the Good as peaks of good fortune and prosperous fate; in your words, they came into existence through violence and destruction, meant to fulfil a very wicked task. No wonder that time made it so that they would later be conquered by legions of the foulest kind, offering shelter to unknown beings. I'm generally very cautious about linking the Nameless Creatures to the Evil itself, though. The thing is, these creatures are so mysterious and arcane that they do not probably serve anyone else but themselves. They're so uncanny and secretive, completely wild and untameable, representing a lethal danger for both Good and Evil. I myself see some akin traits with the independent characterisation of Ungoliant, despite her being a Maia and having been corrupted by Melkor at the ancestral beginning of Eä. The Nameless Creatures seem instead to be a product of that unpredictable and fortuitous case over which neither Melkor nor the Valar have power. Fact that makes me very much unique, I think. However, as you said, should they ever act or sort of partake in the dispute between the two sides, they would be to hinder the Good and not avail its quest.
• #228 von Walküre am 27 Jan, 2018 16:41
• It seems to be the proper day to let this debate have beginning. I had gone through some speculations about the topic, somewhere deep in the Internet, but I don't think we have ever discussed this before, on Modding Union. Hence, let the games begin and may our thoughts be of great avail for the common scope.
  
  Taking into account that Tauriel represents the lack of wisdom and knowledge of the world that High Elves instead possess, being them the heirs of a glorious legacy or having experienced those ancient ages themselves, contrary to the lore of the Woodland Elves, and since her beloved Dwarf departed in grievous circumstances (sorry for all these subordinate clauses, but I've always been so since the dawn of times): do you think that she has eventually elected the path beyond the seas of Arda, heading to the immortal shores of Aman?
• #229 von Eandril am 27 Jan, 2018 16:51
• I don't consider Tauriel in any way canon, but since Tolkien stated (or at least implied) that every single elf would sometime leave Middle-Earth and Arda and sail to Aman, we can safely assume that Tauriel (if she had existed) would eventually have done the same. I really don't think there is much to discuss on this topic.
• #230 von Walküre am 27 Jan, 2018 17:04
• Thank for your opinion. From my part, given the known contradictions or obscurity in Tolkien's passages, especially while dealing with a fictional character that somehow follows some canonical categories (the lore of the Elves of the woods), I do think there could be a couple of interesting themes out there to examine.
  
  Namely, just to put more flesh on the bones of the topic, are really all Elves to depart from the mortal world, at some point? As far as I know, there are Elves who never wished or longed for the journey to Valinor, due to their profound love for Middle-earth; this was also during the Years of the Trees, at the apex of the Blessed Realm's splendour. Also, we know that the love of the Elves towards both their craft or dwellings is, in Galadriel's words, as deep as the abysses of the ocean. So, being Tauriel part of the family of Wood-elves (the 'Elves of Twilight', if I recall correctly) there might be the possibility of her deciding to linger in a world which she's deeply attached to, although the fate for such Elves is one of fading and slowly waning as time passes. This is probably the saddest scenario, yet plausible, I daresay.
  
  Nevertheless, I too rejoice at the idea of her embracing her true fate and finding proper shelter in the realm of the Valar, in which the memory of love does not die nor wither.
• #231 von Julio229 am 27 Jan, 2018 17:17
• I think that she had reasons for either staying or leaving. Her people, unlike most of the Elves, seem to have stayed on Middle-Earth for long after the War of the Ring and the beginning of the Fourth Age, so it is possible that she decided to stay, along with the love of Middle-Earth that she had. However, others such as Legolas (who she was attached to in a way) left, and as Kíli was dead (even though I dislike the love triangle, that factors into her character), that could have been a factor to make her take the path of the other elves and leave Middle-Earth.
• #232 von OakenShield224 am 28 Jan, 2018 11:59
• If we think about what Mirkwood was like as a whole, Oropher tried to stay away from the Noldor and the rest of the World. It is likely that Thranduil was similar as he was king of the Wood Elves(without consideration of the Noldor). It it then likely that neither Oropher or Thranduil would've thought of the Valar in the same way as the Noldor and so this mentality would've spread to the rest of Mirkwood. This is all speculation though.
  
  The problem with this is that Legolas went to the Undying Lands. However, this may be because of the death of Aragorn and the old age of Gimli. After this, Middle Earth may not have held any appeal for Legolas.
• #233 von Walküre am 28 Jan, 2018 17:42
• I would exactly focus on this known isolationist motive which pervades the lore of Mirkwood, even prior to the moving of the king's palace to the northernmost ends of the forest, after the poisoning of the woods by the action of the then-mysterious Necromancer. So, we can really infer how these Elves had always desired to distance themselves from their nobler related kind; their indifference towards Valinor might instead be a bit more atavistic of a trait of their character. It all began when the forefathers of Woodland Elves both refused the invitation of the West or stopped during the journey, bewildered and bewitched by the wonders of Middle-earth. Thus, it is no mystery that most of them are very likely to linger in a decaying world than embarking on the voyage to the immortal shores.
  
  Regardless of such reasoning, though, I agree that personal happenings or sorrowful events (like the death of a beloved one) could also stir within those Elves the longing for peace and relief, for, albeit a fraction of them being much attached to Arda, grief and desolation affect all Immortals equally. This is the destiny of corruption that Arda is bound to suffer, after all. An inexorable fate.
  
  Besides, since we've been able to gather very interesting arguments and explore significant topics of the lore, I think that Tauriel could be a more well-written character than one might think at a first glance, despite her flaws
• #234 von OakenShield224 am 28 Jan, 2018 18:55
• You mentioned personal happenings or sorrowful events. While Legolas is one example, another would be Celebrian. Although related to the Noldor (as daughter of Galadriel and wife of Elrond) she never saw the Undying Lands and lived among the Silvan elves for a lot of her life. However, after her treatment by the orcs and recovery, she decided to leave Middle Earth due to not being fully healed in mind/soul and not wanting to stay in Middle Earth any more.
• #235 von Walküre am 28 Jan, 2018 19:35
• That's also a valid example. One of the imperative laws of Arda goes by the founding assumption that the Elves, the Firstborns, shall live as long as the very world does, not suffering the plagues of illness nor being destined to age and wither; yet, time passes for every living creature and tends to become a burden on the shoulders of immortal beings. Specifically, should the earth (where the Elves are meant to dwell in eternity) be marred and wounded, grief is to temper with such immortal lifespan and have direct effects on Elves themselves: pain, toil or desperation can lead immortal beings to a slow fading unto the moment of definitive departure (death), or they can make an immortal heart so much disheartened and weary, so that the journey beyond the Sea becomes the ultimate solution.
  
  All in all, Elves' immortality is quite more elaborate than the common idea of never-ending life. Although they're gifted an eternal existence, they still differ from the Ainur and mortal events may too turn out to be as impactful for them as they are for Men.
• #236 von Walküre am 02 Feb, 2018 23:31
• Speaking about the renowned journey to the West, I thought about another related topic to discuss: in your opinion, was Radagast the Brown eventually granted the pardon of the Valar and so the permission to come back to the Blessed Realm?
  
  I've always known that the wizard had begun in time to forget about his mission, busy with the company of animals and secluded from the outer world, at the point of failing to achieve the task he was originally appointed to. It's therefore very logical to suppose that he was subsequently forbidden to pass across the sea and to have his full powers as Maia back. But all of this is what I could find on the matter so far, and I don't personally remember if Tolkien has left some kind of revealing hints about it.
  
  I sincerely believe (I like to believe), that Radagast was finally allowed among the people of Aman, in the end. Never has he been author of evil mischief during his entire permanence in Middle-earth; it's quite the other way round, as he did contribute to help the Good via minor acts, yet significant (he sent the Eagles to Isengard and in front of the Black Gate too). It might be legitimate to speculate that, at an unspecified moment during the Fourth Age, the Istar may have taken the route to the Undying Lands through the only two possible ways at his disposal: either aboard a ship or going across the horizon on an Eagle. In both cases, he would have surely deserved such a merry ending.
• #237 von AulëTheSmith am 03 Feb, 2018 02:00
• Zitat von: Walküre am 02 Feb, 2018 23:31

  Speaking about the renowned journey to the West, I thought about another related topic to discuss: in your opinion, was Radagast the Brown eventually granted the pardon of the Valar and so the permission to come back to the Blessed Realm?
  
  I've always known that the wizard had begun in time to forget about his mission, busy with the company of animals and secluded from the outer world, at the point of failing to achieve the task he was originally appointed to. It's therefore very logical to suppose that he was subsequently forbidden to pass across the sea and to have his full powers as Maia back. But all of this is what I could find on the matter so far, and I don't personally remember if Tolkien has left some kind of revealing hints about it.
  
  I sincerely believe (I like to believe), that Radagast was finally allowed among the people of Aman, in the end. Never has he been author of evil mischief during his entire permanence in Middle-earth; it's quite the other way round, as he did contribute to help the Good via minor acts, yet significant (he sent the Eagles to Isengard and in front of the Black Gate too). It might be legitimate to speculate that, at an unspecified moment during the Fourth Age, the Istar may have taken the route to the Undying Lands through the only two possible ways at his disposal: either aboard a ship or going across the horizon on an Eagle. In both cases, he would have surely deserved such a merry ending.
  

  
  I definely share you vision Walküre. Radagast did nothing bad to be banned from the final returns to the sacred lands. He simply lost his path, yet helping in some occasions as you said.
  
  It is interesting, to remain in theme, the death of Saruman as described in the lore. In the moment he dies, his spirit initially turns into the west , almost as if his soul was accepted anyway (despite what he did) in the hall of mandos, but then a cold wind coming from west blown his spirit away. I like very much that passage of the book
• #238 von OakenShield224 am 03 Feb, 2018 12:24
• “And as the captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.”
  
  "To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. "
  
  Interesting how the descriptions of both Sauron and Saruman in their final moments are so similar.
• #239 von Walküre am 03 Feb, 2018 16:35
• No wonder that he came up with a strong analogy between the two characters: in spite of the differences, they were both counted among the Angels and betrayed their mission in the worst manner possible, inflicting additional agony to the already-marred Arda, hindering the Good in any way (Sauron had been tormenting the lore of Middle-earth since the Elder Days). Thus, their ultimate fate is the gravest which could befall for the Ainur: being violently deprived of your own physical body and undergoing a destiny of eternal misery as a wandering phantom, without rest or relief.