Murin and Drar,do they need/deserve a change!!

[LordDainIronfoot]

So I was think with so many concept arts from the Hobbit Movie's wouldn't it be goo if Murin get how should I say it more Dwarvish look!!For Example his Sword looks more like its a Human Short Swords and his Helemet always reminded me of Eomaer too much!! And as he gets Level 10 or with the Mithril Armor Upgrade he could get some more Dwarvish Like Heavy Armor!
For a Helmet may e something from these since he is Iron Hills Hero... http://imgur.com/nOgvo37,q6vcg1c,uDUC8pI http://i.imgur.com/q6vcg1c.png
For his Sword may be something like this http://i.imgur.com/uDUC8pI.png http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/1/762/761504/thumb_620x2000/Iron_Hills_Short_Brought_Sword_for_Captain.png
His HSield could get something with the Boar Theme the Symbol of the Iron Hills I tihnk it wil lfit good!AS for hisheavy Armor well there a lot of variants from the new Art Books!!A for his Skills well I think they are good since he is not a Leader Type of Hero or some monster Slayer he is good in that Area!
Drar the Archer could also get some Visual Changes in Appearance I mean he could get different type of Armor!!For his Skills it will be nice if he is able to Train Archers give them Expirience and Givethem some kind of bonus not Leadership but rather bonus in Vision or Range!!
So I want to hear the opinion of the Community and all Fans about those cool Dwarven Heroes do they like them and do they want to see them with some Change!

[Adrigabbro]

Definitely agree with you on that point. I especially dislike Drar's 3.8.1 design.

EDIT: I mean, I got a problem with fat and strong dwarven archers. Archers with the bodysize of Kili are already better.

[LordDainIronfoot]

Yup they deffinetly need more of a Visual Change than a Skill changes!!I justh ope that they will get it

[Tienety]

I agree, Murin could have a new sword and shield.
I have a small idea of these two characters. Dain has two captains in the film. Murin and Drar could get new face from this captains and unique helmets. So these two characters will have a movie atmosphere.

Murin design:
Face: http://media.moddb.com/images/members/2/1618/1617670/Murin.png
Helmet: http://i.imgur.com/fX7bS2u.png

Drar design:
Face: http://media.moddb.com/images/members/2/1618/1617670/Drar.png
Helmet: http://i.imgur.com/1oSUWNZ.jpg

What do you think?

[LordDainIronfoot]

It looks like no change there too mate!So we just have to enjoy the great Dwarven Factions as they are,well mostly Ered Luin and some times Erebor and Iron Hills just for the sake of playing with Dain!

[Tienety]

It looks like no change there too mate!So we just have to enjoy the great Dwarven Factions as they are,well mostly Ered Luin and some times Erebor and Iron Hills just for the sake of playing with Dain!

Yes, but It is a pity that only Murin and Dain are useful in the Iron Hills.
I think that Drar is too weak and not very useful. I have a idea about a his abilities:

Level 1: Toggle Arrows:
Switching between normal arrows and fire arrows.
The fire arrow deals much more damage against buildings, but Drar shooting these arrows -50% slowly.
I think that Drar's role is destroy buildings, but he just shoots off a few fire arrows and he can do nothing against buildings for some time in 4.1.

Level 1: Two Wanderers(passive ability):
This ablity is same as now, but if Murin or Drar gets level 5, both heroes also get souvenirs from Lake-Town. They visited many places, probably also Lake-Town.
Drar: Drar gets new bow from Lake Town and + 20% damage.
Murin: Murin gets new sword from Lake-Town and + 20% damage.

Level 5: Ballista from the Iron Hills
Drar summon the Ballista from the Iron Hill as a permanent support

Level 10: Barrage
This ablity is same as now.

What do you think about this? 

[LordDainIronfoot]

I think it is great,but in the End it doesnt matter what  ithink!

[ringbearer]

It looks like no change there too mate!So we just have to enjoy the great Dwarven Factions as they are,well mostly Ered Luin and some times Erebor and Iron Hills just for the sake of playing with Dain!

Yes, but It is a pity that only Murin and Dain are useful in the Iron Hills.
I think that Drar is too weak and not very useful. I have a idea about a his abilities:

Level 1: Toggle Arrows:
Switching between normal arrows and fire arrows.
The fire arrow deals much more damage against buildings, but Drar shooting these arrows -50% slowly.
I think that Drar's role is destroy buildings, but he just shoots off a few fire arrows and he can do nothing against buildings for some time in 4.1.

Level 1: Two Wanderers(passive ability):
This ablity is same as now, but if Murin or Drar gets level 5, both heroes also get souvenirs from Lake-Town. They visited many places, probably also Lake-Town.
Drar: Drar gets new bow from Lake Town and + 20% damage.
Murin: Murin gets new sword from Lake-Town and + 20% damage.

Level 5: Ballista from the Iron Hills
Drar summon the Ballista from the Iron Hill as a permanent support

Level 10: Barrage
This ablity is same as now.

What do you think about this? 

 
I think it's a great idea for drar . i don't know like the others but i find them ( drar & murin ) really un-athmosferic , boring. F.e murin's last ability is a joke

[Draco100000]

Well, I think they are very good like they are right now, good abilities, good voices and a desing which is completely according to the desing of the infantry and the other units of ironhills. So, if the team decide to put movie desings in ironhills, they could change them also, but if the team decide to not use the movie desings, they dont have to change them, I like them, as they are now.

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

I like them, as they are now.

Sign! 

[LordDainIronfoot]

Well I like them as concepts and heroes but I tihnk the diea Tienity has is good and should be used! You say they fit Iron Hills Infantry well theh how the new Dain fits in them!?
So I tihnk they need a little Visual Change and only Drar some new Skill from what Tienity said!

[Tienety]

I like them, as they are now.

Sign! 

Actually, I like Drar and Murin designs and voices.
But I think Drar needs a better abilities against buildings. Bofur and Gloin are better against buildings with melee attack in 4.1.

[LordDainIronfoot]

I agree with you!And I think the Summoning of Iron Ballistas will fit really great in his Role!!But still I tihnk there should be a limit to those Iron Ballistas like 5-6 Max! And still a little design change wont hurt!

[ringbearer]

These ballistas would be awsome and unique , and now maybe something new for murin's last ability? O:)

[Draco100000]

These ballistas would be awsome and unique , and now maybe something new for murin's last ability? O:)

Its awesome right now, paralize everyone in big area, i mean, combined with the abilitie which makes area damage, you can make a massacre.

[LordDainIronfoot]

Well still I tihnk the ballistas will be better!

[ringbearer]

These ballistas would be awsome and unique , and now maybe something new for murin's last ability? O:)

Its awesome right now, paralize everyone in big area, i mean, combined with the abilitie which makes area damage, you can make a massacre.

I'm not sayin' that it's useless but just give it some uniqueness , many heroes have this ability already and as murin is made-up hero , he can has something different and not strictly lore-friendly. If you know what i mean

[LordDainIronfoot]

Nicely said mate! And still I tihnk it fits better for a Dwarven Hero to summon a Iron Ballistas than falling rocks from the sky And indeed it will ake Iron hills more uniqe and the only other faction with Ballistas ,cuz for now only isengard has them and they are from the Evil Factions so it will be nice for at least one Good faction to have something similar to that!

[Tienety]

These ballistas would be awsome and unique , and now maybe something new for murin's last ability? O:)

Its awesome right now, paralize everyone in big area, i mean, combined with the abilitie which makes area damage, you can make a massacre.

I'm not sayin' that it's useless but just give it some uniqueness , many heroes have this ability already and as murin is made-up hero , he can has something different and not strictly lore-friendly. If you know what i mean

Yes, you're right. This ability isn't very unique.

Maybe something like this:
Level 10: Stubborn Dwarf: Murin plunges into battle with enthusiasm and destroys everything in his path. He gets shortly knockback, +100% attack speed and + 25% more speed.

This ability is from my concept for Thorin III. but maybe this is more fit for Murin.

[ringbearer]

i would suggest something like : murin gets knock back attack for some time ( no dwarwen hero has it except durin ) and allied units get +30%attack speed.

[Draco100000]

He isnt support, and 30% of attack speed increase is too much. Maybe he can get Knockbak and 20% more attack speed. This could be good, but also with a damage increased by 25% which can combined with shield attack to get a very big damage in area, making him more than a simple hero. Im agree with this completely. The balistas fit more for Drar, who can loose his sabotage abilitie for the summon of 2 iron balistas.

[LordDainIronfoot]

Yes Drar could summon 2 Iron Ballistas but can Max 6 of them!It will be nice!! :-)

[Tienety]

He isnt support, and 30% of attack speed increase is too much. Maybe he can get Knockbak and 20% more attack speed. This could be good, but also with a damage increased by 25% which can combined with shield attack to get a very big damage in area, making him more than a simple hero. Im agree with this completely. The balistas fit more for Drar, who can loose his sabotage abilitie for the summon of 2 iron balistas.

So something like this for Murin?
Level 10: Stubborn Dwarf: Murin plunges into battle with enthusiasm and destroys everything in his path. He gets shortly knockback and +20% attack speed.

Why Drar needs two ballistas? I think this is too strong for level 5. Drar's ballista can be perfect for surprise attack with tunnel system. Drar come out from the tunnel, summon ballista and destroy building.

Yes Drar could summon 2 Iron Ballistas but can Max 6 of them!It will be nice!! :-)

I think that one is enough. This ability should work similarly as Dain's battlewagons in Erebor.

[LordDainIronfoot]

Well,1 Ballista will be fine but still I think you should be able to summon 1 with a cooldown on the Ability and you gould have the Max of 5-6 Ballistas at the same time!
And another thing about Drar,since he is Masterfull Archer he gets only a Bow and Axe Tooggle will make him more like Ranger,so why not make a cimpromise and make him able to use Axe to defend himself when an Enemy is too close to him,then he gets an Axe which he can cary on his Hip or Back and automaticly deffend himself !?

[Gandalf The Gray]

i think they both need some visual change and drar needs a  CrossBow

[Tienety]

I have some new better ideas for these two heroes:

Murin:
He is a great hero with good abilities except War Cry. This ability isn't unique.
I have idea for new better ability for him:

Level 10: Elite Ram riders
Murin temporarily summon one battalion of Ram riders with Slayers design of riders for 30 seconds.

I think that Ram riders need something more than two seconds in Murin's ability on level 5.

Drar:
I think that Drar is too weak and not very useful in game. Drar isn't very effective against building and Bard is better archer. I think that two heroes only with bow is too many for Iron Hills subfaction, Drar or Bard need melee attack.
I have some new better ability for Drar.

Drar abilities:
Level 1: Toggle Arrows:
Switching between Iron arrows and fire arrows.

Fire arrow:
Drar gets +50% damage against buildings and -25% attack speed

Iron arrows:
Drar gets +50% damage against units.

Level 1: Two Wanderers(Same as now)

Level 5: Sabotage
Drar send a group of dwarves to sabotage enemy buildings.
The prodution of a target hostile Buiding is ceased

Level 10: Incendiarism(available only with Fire arrow)
Drar shots a few fire arrow to selected enemy buildings.
Building will burn and gets great damage.

Level 10: Barbed arrow(available only with Iron arrows)
Drar shooting his special barbed arrow to selected unit or hero.
Enemy unit or hero gets medium damage, -20% movement speed and -10% armor for 10 second.

Incendiarism and Barbed arrow abilities are recharge together. You can't use both abilites at the same time.

What do you think about this?

[LordDainIronfoot]

i think they both need some visual change and drar needs a  CrossBow

Some Visual Change will be nice! But about the Crossbow,I like it as a weapon for their Units but not for a Hero!

I have some new better ideas for these two heroes:

Murin:
He is a great hero with good abilities except War Cry. This ability isn't unique.
I have idea for new better ability for him:

Level 10: Elite Ram riders
Murin temporarily summon one battalion of Ram riders with movie design for 30 seconds.

I think that Ram riders need something more than two seconds in Murin's ability on level 5.

Drar:
I think that Drar is too weak and not very useful in game. Drar isn't very effective against building and Bard is better archer. I think that two heroes only with bow is too many for Iron Hills subfaction. Drar can be new main archer and better building destroyer. Iron Hils can get new outpost with new hero without bow:
Assembly Hall for Iron Hills

Drar abilities:
Level 1: Toggle Arrows:
Switching between Iron arrows and fire arrows.

Fire arrow:
Drar gets +50% damage against buildings but also gets -50% damage against units.

Iron arrows:
Drar gets +50% damage against units but also gets -50% damage against buildings.

Level 1: Two Wanderers(Same as now)

Level 5: Sabotage
Drar send a group of dwarves to sabotage enemy buildings.
The prodution of a target hostile Buiding is ceased

Level 10: Incendiarism(available only with Fire arrow)
Drar shots a few fire arrow to selected enemy buildings.
Building will burn and gets great damage.

Level 10: Barbed arrow(available only with Iron arrows)
Drar shooting his special barbed arrow to selected unit or hero.
Enemy unit or hero gets medium damage, -20% movement speed and -10% armor for 10 second.

Incendiarism and Barbed arrow abilities are recharge together. You can't use both abilites at the same time.

What do you think about this?

I like those ideas!But if I may add few changes!
Iron Arrow should have a little Extra DMG against Heavy Armored Units,after all it is a Special Kind of Dwarven Iron Arrow! May be like 10-15% DMG against Heavy Armored Units next to the other bonus!?
And I agree that Ram Riders need proper intagrattion for more than 1sec run The LV 10 Ability looks fine but I think those Riders deseve permament place!I think he shold be able to summon 1 Battalion Permamently with cooldown and be able to summon again up to the max of 3-4 Battalions of Ram Riders !
And what you think about my suggestion for Drars auto-deffence!?
Greeting from Iron Hills mates!

[Adrigabbro]

I have some new better ideas for these two heroes:

Murin:
He is a great hero with good abilities except War Cry. This ability isn't unique.
I have idea for new better ability for him:

Level 10: Elite Ram riders
Murin temporarily summon one battalion of Ram riders with movie design for 30 seconds.

I think that Ram riders need something more than two seconds in Murin's ability on level 5.

Drar:
I think that Drar is too weak and not very useful in game. Drar isn't very effective against building and Bard is better archer. I think that two heroes only with bow is too many for Iron Hills subfaction. Drar can be new main archer and better building destroyer. Iron Hils can get new outpost with new hero without bow:
Assembly Hall for Iron Hills

Drar abilities:
Level 1: Toggle Arrows:
Switching between Iron arrows and fire arrows.

Fire arrow:
Drar gets +50% damage against buildings but also gets -50% damage against units.

Iron arrows:
Drar gets +50% damage against units but also gets -50% damage against buildings.

Level 1: Two Wanderers(Same as now)

Level 5: Sabotage
Drar send a group of dwarves to sabotage enemy buildings.
The prodution of a target hostile Buiding is ceased

Level 10: Incendiarism(available only with Fire arrow)
Drar shots a few fire arrow to selected enemy buildings.
Building will burn and gets great damage.

Level 10: Barbed arrow(available only with Iron arrows)
Drar shooting his special barbed arrow to selected unit or hero.
Enemy unit or hero gets medium damage, -20% movement speed and -10% armor for 10 second.

Incendiarism and Barbed arrow abilities are recharge together. You can't use both abilites at the same time.

What do you think about this?

You are right about Murin, War Cry is meh...
But I'd rather see Dain able to summon Ram Riders instead of Murin. His last ability could be something like a temporary bonus, or area of effect attack.

As for Drar, I agree with you, supposing there is a nice concept of Assembly Hall. The idea of switching bewteen fire and regular arrows is cool, but there is no reason for fire arrows to deal less damage to units. I have something in mind like Fire arrows provide more damage against buildings but at the expense of attack speed. Makes more sense. But the idea is here! 
Sabotage is very fine, I like it. However, I'd rather see Drar able to summon one Ballista instead of training it in Assembly Hall. Indeed it would be too much of a great advantage compared to Ered Luin and Erebor. I believe that would be a perfect level 10 ability.

[LordDainIronfoot]

The Ballista can be intigrated in the Siegeworks if my thread about Siege Units ofthe Dwarves is liked and used,and not in the Assembly Halls!
Well we have suggested an idea about Ram Riders and Dain but if it not used this one is ratehr good!
Now his Fire Arrow can have extra damage against buildings and a little more dmg against Light Armored Units while his Iron Arrow will have Exrtra DMG against Heavy Armored Units!

[Adrigabbro]

I'm sorry but I disagree with your idea about dwarven siege weapons. I think it's quite fine as it is. Thus I believe the best way to put the movie Ballista in the mod is with one of Drar's ability.

If the team doesn't want Dain to summon Ram riders, then Murin is a good choice, ye.

[LordDainIronfoot]

No problem there mate,you are free to dissagree and epxress your opinion! But it comes to the fact that Erebor has an Extra Siege Units which leaves Ered Luin and Iron Hills at dissadvantage but that is for other thread entirly!
And what you think for a little Visual Change in Murin and Drar and Drar geting some auto deffence of the sort !?

[Adrigabbro]

I like Murin's design, but I'm not fond of Drar's. But I don't think that is urgent to change its design. As for your self-defense idea, I can't really see why he should get it.

[Gandalf The Gray]

Tienety s ideas for murin s and drar s skills are  awesome but i think dwarfs of iron heels should get another build plot not lake town or dale so drar can be the only bow hero and i still think he needs an awesome crossbow as the units too i think bows is more ered luin thing

[Tienety]

I made a few changes in my concept.

I like those ideas!But if I may add few changes!
Iron Arrow should have a little Extra DMG against Heavy Armored Units,after all it is a Special Kind of Dwarven Iron Arrow! May be like 10-15% DMG against Heavy Armored Units next to the other bonus!?

Drar's Iron Arrows will have more damage against all units, including heavy armored units.

And I agree that Ram Riders need proper intagrattion for more than 1sec run The LV 10 Ability looks fine but I think those Riders deseve permament place!I think he shold be able to summon 1 Battalion Permamently with cooldown and be able to summon again up to the max of 3-4 Battalions of Ram Riders !

I disagree. Iron Hills don't need permanently four batalions of Ram Riders. This will be unfair for others subfactions
Murin is an inexpensive hero, I think that one Battalion of Ram Riders only temporarily is enough for him and Iron Hills.

And what you think about my suggestion for Drars auto-deffence!?

I think that Drar does not need this. He can escape into the mine and get mithril.