[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Rohan Suggestions

Rohan Late Game Suggestions

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ziqing:
That "peasant/bowmen to cavalry" stuff could have some limitations, I am thinking about a final power, once activated, for 1 minute the stud farm will automatically transform any infantry units near it to cavalry units(lv 1 no upgrade), however, in this period the stud farm will generate no resources

Elite KryPtik:

--- Zitat von: kreso am 27. Mai 2015, 22:33 ---I agree for that peasants spam isn't good idea. I think peasnts should cost 200 and they most be 2lvl to get that horeses. Theoden's leadership should give extra xp bonus and his skill Times of Glory (5 or 6 or 7 lvl  skill) should be changed into some healing. :)

--- Ende Zitat ---
Théoden already has a skill to increase experience gain, called Hour of Glory, and both Elfhelm and Hama give passive healing to units. I think that adding a requirement to have the peasants be level 2 is a good idea.


--- Zitat von: ziqing am 27. Mai 2015, 22:38 ---That "peasant/bowmen to cavalry" stuff could have some limitations, I am thinking about a final power, once activated, for 1 minute the stud farm will automatically transform any infantry units near it to cavalry units(lv 1 no upgrade), however, in this period the stud farm will generate no resources

--- Ende Zitat ---
Would this REALLY be worth it as a 10 point power? Compare it to the current 10 point power, which by itself can generate a full, free, permanent standing army of fully upgraded Rohirrim. It needs to be comparable to that.

Alright hoho here is my rebuttal. My idea to balance the 10 point power. Say that the level 10 power transforms all to cavalry, but a weaker form of cavalry. Call them something like "Peasant Horsemen" and make them like half as effective as Rohirrim, but still dangerous in numbers, kind of like the traitors on horses, but can receive upgrades and level up.

Right now, against an Isengard pike/shieldbearer spam or a Gondor Tower Guard spam, Rohan will lose. If you don't believe me we can play and you can try it, the only place Rohan has a chance is early and mid game. Late game, once the enemy has their heroes and fully upgraded pikes, you can forget about killing them with cavalry.

For the Assembly Point bonus, it wouldn't necessarily need to be so strong, it could be something like 4 of them gives a 30% boost. But seriously, just compare this to other factions:
Rohan gets 1 SINGLE special discount on cavalry. That's it.
Gondor gets a discount on cavalry, upgrades, AND elite units, and a power recharge time decrease bonus from their buildings. Also their stoneworkers can give them discounted buildings.
Mordor gets discounts on trolls, all orcs, power recharge times, and upgrades.
Isengard gets an incredible building discount from Lumber Mills, a discount on units and upgrades, and their outpost makes their upgrades insanely strong. Pikes with those upgrade buffs and shieldbearer/captain combo completely demolish Rohirrim, no contest. After directly comparing the factions you can see the gap my suggestions are trying to fill. You also are not taking into account that building 4 assembly points requires 4 settlement spots, and they don't generate resources, and they cost 850 to get fully armed and operation. That's a NASTY hit on economy, but the building speed improvement combined with the healing effect of the assembly point would give some interesting strategies to a skilled player.

Also, you say since when has Rohan been known for huge peasant armies, and for making huge armies quickly. I draw your attention to both the movie and book, in both the army starts out as a ground force of militia, who use a shield wall tactic. Once Théoden calls the Muster of the Rohirrim, everybody who can bear arms comes to dunharrow 6000 troops in only 2 DAYS. All of those infantry then mount horses, and become the mighty force we know and love from the Pelennor. So this would represent them perfectly, doing a peasant spam and then using the 10 point power to make them all mounted is an identical representation of what happens in both the film and the book. Heck, you could even call the 10 point power "Muster the Rohirrim!"

For the Farm bonus, firstly I'll address that some players don't do all outer farms and spam peasants, but do outer stud farms for the discount on cavalry. Me personally, I usually only do 1 single outer Peasant Farm near my base so I can use corrupted Théoden's taxes power on it for the early game money, and I use a few battalions of Traitors to help me hold the line. Giving all Infantry a discount would add a serious incentive to have an infantry build for the game, not to mention making it worth it at all to make archers. It would also mesh very nicely with Gamling's late game skill Rapid Deployment Order, which right now probably doesn't get used a whole lot, because like you said late game Rohan only has cavalry, for now anyways. Also, with this idea an army of fully upgraded peasants and archers wouldn't really be "a lame farmer army" it would be a force to be reckoned with, used properly with heroes. I think it would be good for the forces of light to have a spam faction as well, it would add some great diversity to the gameplay.

So that's my rebuttal. REALLY think about it everything I've mentioned here and the effects it would have on the gameplay, and you'll see that none of this would really be that overpowered. Rohan only gets 7 build plots in their castle, you need 1 for stables, 1 for armory, and usually 1 for a well, leaving only 4 inner build plots for stud farms or the recruitment camp/training grounds/whatever you want to call it building that I suggested. On most maps holding 6 outer farms against a player who can harass decently is no small feat. So getting any of these bonuses is not gonna be easy, same as any other faction. It would just give the player some options for different playstyles, rather than just early peasant spam followed by all cavalry, or an all cavalry rush. Rohan has no infantry option right now mid to late game, not a serious one anyways, and this would cement them as having the 2nd weakest, but also 2nd cheapest infantry. The only army they have a chance to beat late game is Mordor, but even Mordor can just do a pike spam combined with the debuffs of the Nazgul and murder them. Rohirrim without leadership don't stand a chance once their Glorious Charge runs out. Also, instead of just bashing me  :D come up with some bonuses of your own! Debate is great, but only if it produces good ideas  :) All of the ideas I gave could of course have their effects nerfed a bit too, I just used up to 50% as an example. I'm awaiting your reply  ;)

EDIT: I also have another suggestion, lower the standard Rohirrim units CP to 60 like infantry.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
I have to disagree with you on those building bonuses, KryPtik. You say that Rohan has too few of them, which is a little bit too easy. The rally point provides in-field reinforcements, which is a unique trait only Rohan has and it can be incredibly powerful. Rohan farms also have a unique trait only Rohan (and in the full version MM) has: they are barracks as well as resource buildings at the same time. In the demo, Rohan is the "in-your-face" faction, they have cheap but decent swordsmen and can recruit from all over the map. Combine that with their relatively cheap cavalry that you can support so well with heroes or the spellbook and you really give your opponent a hard time. No faction (maybe Isengard, but they need some tweaks anyway) can put on the pressure as early as Rohan, that is their biggest strength. Allowing them to reduce the cost of their infantry would be a gg in any matchup, nobody would even build cavalry anymore.

For the Assembly point bonus, I honestly don't think it is necessary. It already is strong (I'm repeating myself here, I know) without a bonus. Let's compare it to exterior buildings from other factions without a bonus: Gondors beacon recruits units, their ranger camp recruits units and a hero, Isengard can recruit units and a hero from Dunland, Mordor can recruit units from Cirith Ungol. The Assembly point does all that, but can heal and has an archer upgrade. It is fine as it is in my opinion.



--- Zitat von: Elite KryPtik ---Right now, against an Isengard pike/shieldbearer spam or a Gondor Tower Guard spam, Rohan will lose. If you don't believe me we can play and you can try it, the only place Rohan has a chance is early and mid game.
--- Ende Zitat ---
What if I told you that this is how it should be?^^
I'm overexaggerating here, but still: Each faction has different strengths and weaknesses. Rohans strengths are aggressive infantry plays and strong cavalry in the early and mid game. You can use these to build an advantage that the enemy cannot compensate. Gondor reaches its peak later; Tower Guards are strong (especially vs Rohan) but expensive just like rangers. They also get Aragorn and Gandalf, two very expensive LG heroes. Isengard shieldbearers and berserkers also are lategame units and you should have the upper hand as long as he doesn't have uruks and a functioning economy. Unfortunately both of these things happen rather soon atm, which is why Isengard is so powerful^^

Elite KryPtik:
So you think that Rohan should just have no chance at all late game? I understand each faction should have different strengths and weaknesses, but to completely disregard a faction in late game, especially considering how much harder it is to kill a full castle in this excellent mod, pretty much kills the faction in a players eyes. Rohan is very strong early and mid game, and I do recognize that, but if you can't seal the deal than you automatically lose late game. If that is the way you want it to stay then so be it, but it seems a little bit self defeating for players to bother playing Rohan at all in that case. I mean, if you know going in that you don't kill the enemy player in 20 mins or you lose, that's pretty disheartening :( I have seen this sentiment all over the English forums, people saying that Rohan cannot stand up against other factions. All of the other factions have some strong late game units, and Mordor is strong in all 3 stages of the game, so all I'm arguing is to give that same attention to detail to Rohan. Not that the team hasn't already taken the original Rohan faction from EA and made them like twice as good, but with what's been done with the other factions, especially Mordor, Rohan leaves quite a bit to be desired in terms of differentiating strategies.

Now the building bonuses are debatable, don't get me wrong, I was just giving my take on them. But they should get SOMETHING else, because although the Assembly Point does give an excellent healing bonus, it dies incredibly easy to even 1 battering ram or a few battalions of swordsmen. Pretty much every other faction gets something to reduce the cost of upgrades, so that could be added. Also don't ignore my idea for the building that grants resistance to pikes at level 3, that alone would significantly help Rohan late game without making them OP. All I'm really trying to do is get people to list ideas for Rohan late game, instead of just disagreeing with mine :P They really do need something, or else I believe people just won't play as them in the long run. Hopefully once the game is more complete, maybe Isengard and Mordor will be a little less OP, and then the discussion might not be so fiery :D

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
No, I don't think that Rohan should just have no chance at all late game, that is what I meant with overexaggerating^^ Probably poor choice of words there.
What I was trying to say is that if Gondor gets to those later stages of the game while still being in good shape, it should have an advantage over Rohan. The Rohan player on the other hand can deny Gondor this advantage because of his early pressure. So versus a good Gondor player you will lost the late game most of the times, while a good Rohan player won't let Gondor get to the late game most of the times^^


--- Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 28. Mai 2015, 12:13 ---Also don't ignore my idea for the building that grants resistance to pikes at level 3, that alone would significantly help Rohan late game without making them OP. All I'm really trying to do is get people to list ideas for Rohan late game, instead of just disagreeing with mine :P

--- Ende Zitat ---
I was actually planning to comment on the infantry cost decrease only because I found that to be the most problematic. I went a little bit off topic afterwards, so sorry for not being constructive^^
Cavalry being more resistant to pikes is bad most of the times in my opinion. If pikes don't kill cavalry, what then? I prefer suggestions like making the Hama summon (his lvl 10 ability) stay permanently so you have more elite infantry at your disposal.

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