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Heroes - how powerful should they be?

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NicolajLarsen:
1) My favorite heroes must be Saruman, Lurts, Éowyn, With-king and Boromir (Even though I think that Boromir, Lurts with bow and Witch-king is too weak) That would be my favorite heroes for now. But if we include the factions not included heroes, then I would say Thranduil, Galadriel, Arwen, Tauriel, Goblin King and The defiler.

2) Well, I do find Beregond boring, I think it's beacuse of the way he attacks with his spear and his abilities is not uninteresting but not interesting either. I don't find the Nazguls as interesting as I think they should be - but I do use them. I also think that Gothmog's attack damge is to low and that Mollock has to low health considered that he is a troll - But they're fun.

3) I think you did a good job making all heroes have some sort of "role" Some is meant for tanking and some is meant to deal damage. But yeah most of the heroes are fun to play.

4) In the beginnig when I started playing the game I needed to adjust to the fact that heroes aren't that strong anymore - with that said, after I tried it a lot, I think that it was a good idea that you did what you did, but some heroes have to low health I think (Gandalf, Witch-King, Gothmog, Mollock, the Nazguls, and maybe Boromir) Roahn heroes are nearly "perfect" I think.

5) Lurtz with bow is seriously too weak. Boromir has a very low damage also (I know he is tank, but then again) Gothmog has a low damage too.  Nazguls and Mouth of Sauron do not damge enough in my opinion. Again Rohan heroes is nearly "perfect" in both health and damage I think.

6) Again, Lurtz with bow is not sufficient enough. Bregond with bow could also get a little stronger, but only a little I think. Faramir is good both ranged and melee if you ask me.

7) As of now I think that Gandalf is far too weak (considered his cost - for now I would say he should cost 2000-2500) I think that both Wizard Blast and Word Of Power should damage units to the "red bar" - Wizard Blast now do only half the health of units (which I don't think is enough) I agree that these abilities should not kill all units in the area, especially when units are clumping) That would be to overpowered in my opinion. I think that damaging to the "red bar" would be a reasonable solution. I would like to say that I think that Saruman is good though (he is as he should be, perfect) Although I would wish that his fireball were much stronger, against everything, especially heroes (like in the vanilla game, he used to have a significant damage on heroes.) Éomer's spear is also kinda useless to me (Do not damage enough) Théoden's favor was also better before - just normally experience. Nazgul's curse blade is also kinda useless to me ( I never use it) Mouth Of Sauron's beam does not damage enough, but all his other abilities are great and usefull. I would also like to say that you did an excellent job with Sharku, he has really improved since vanilla were he was extremely vulnerable.

8) I think I already answered that question above.

9) I think Word Of Power and Wizard Blast should damage to the "red bar" not the yellow as it is now - that is too low.

helloa2134:
I will reply to each of your questions in turn Lord of Mordor
First I will say I am a huge supporter of the weakening heroes from 3.8.1.  Currently I think the general status of heroes is pretty much perfect, with only a few select heroes needing a tweak.  I agree with you that ALL heroes are essentially support for armies, and not armies in their own right.

1)My absolute favorite hero is currently Beregond. He's an early game hero, very cheap, great at killing creeps, and has a host of very unique abilities.  He is especially good at supporting outlying farms.  His ability to strengthen nearby buildings is immensely useful.  His level 10 ability, the one which enables him to spawn soldiers of the white company, is both very cool and very useful.  He is definitely not a fighter, but he has his strengths in other fields. Also, he evokes some heavy Oblivion nostalgia with his voice, so thats fun.
Mordor's heroes, especially Sauron, are all awesome. However,  I almost never use Mollok , so I cant really speak for him.
Rohan's heroes are all good, especially Gamling, who is especially useful for his early game ability to summon infantry squads, as well as for his late game ability to reinforce all squads and speed up infantry production. Theoden, both corrupted and not, has a host of useful abilities. Glorious Charge especially is both useful and simply badass. Denethor is just a thoroughly unique hero, and he has really cool abilities. You also did a very good job of showing Denethor's descent into madness through the use of the palantir, so kudos for that.

2)I have only minor gripes about a few heroes.  Aragorn's King Elessar faction-wide ability needs some refinement, but that is a separate topic. Other than that Aragorn is fine. Theodred is really only useful once he has been leveled up a bit. I wouldn't go so far as to say he is bad though. I also don't feel Mel Gibson's voice is really fitting but that isn't really a major complaint.  :D  Imrahil is a thoroughly average hero. He isn't particularly useful aside from being a prerequisite for the production of Dol Amroth heroes. I usually produce him for that, but I don't ever feel excited about using him.
Boromir currently isn't as useful because his horn has been marginalized because of the widespread fear resistance, but that issue is being solved. Lurtz and Ugluk are thematically good, as the leaders of the Uruk-hai, but their abilities are not that impressive. Ugluk's heal and leadership are useful, but his late game abilities are meh. Lurtz as well is ok, but not great. I use them when they are required, but don't look forward to using them. N.B. If I don't mention a hero, I think he/she is great currently.

3/4/5)Yes, I think heroes are currently fun to play and useful as well. I think, generally, they are well balanced health-wise and damage-wise and thematically appropriate as well.

6)Heroes with both melee and range (like Beregond) are useful, though I do tend to stick with one. It's useful when my hero gets wounded, I can pull my hero out of harm's way but still have him do damage to the enemy. Lurtz and Faramir, who have ranged abilities as well as melee, encourage me to use both ranged and melee, though I do tend to stick to one over the other.

7)Gandalf/Saruman are useful, but expensive. At the same time, I do not think their powers could be strengthened significantly without unbalancing the game, nor do I think their cost should be lowered much.

8/9) Word of Power should weaken an upgraded army or drastically wound non-upgraded infantry , but not kill them outright. Naturally a ring-empowered Gandalf should do even more damage to the extent that it heavily damages even an upgraded army. But to kill an army with one click is too powerful and not at all strategic. It's fun when playing against the AI, but just annoying when playing multiplayer. The same can be said for Saruman's lightening strike.  Wizard's blast should do approximately 300 damage (going by your figures listed above.) Normal soldiers should be brought to low health and elite infantry should be harmed significantly. However, hero-infantry (like Citadel Guards) should barely be affected. I mean, hero-infantry should be able to kill heroes.
If Wizard's Blast does more damage as the hero levels up, then it should kill basic non-upgraded infantry outright at higher levels.

numan1111:

--- Zitat von: NicolajLarsen am 11. Jun 2015, 12:56 ---1) My favorite heroes must be Saruman, Lurts, Éowyn, With-king and Boromir (Even though I think that Boromir, Lurts with bow and Witch-king is too weak) That would be my favorite heroes for now. But if we include the factions not included heroes, then I would say Thranduil, Galadriel, Arwen, Tauriel, Goblin King and The defiler.

2) Well, I do find Beregond boring, I think it's beacuse of the way he attacks with his spear and his abilities is not uninteresting but not interesting either. I don't find the Nazguls as interesting as I think they should be - but I do use them. I also think that Gothmog's attack damge is to low and that Mollock has to low health considered that he is a troll - But they're fun.

3) I think you did a good job making all heroes have some sort of "role" Some is meant for tanking and some is meant to deal damage. But yeah most of the heroes are fun to play.

4) In the beginnig when I started playing the game I needed to adjust to the fact that heroes aren't that strong anymore - with that said, after I tried it a lot, I think that it was a good idea that you did what you did, but some heroes have to low health I think (Gandalf, Witch-King, Gothmog, Mollock, the Nazguls, and maybe Boromir) Roahn heroes are nearly "perfect" I think.

5) Lurtz with bow is seriously too weak. Boromir has a very low damage also (I know he is tank, but then again) Gothmog has a low damage too.  Nazguls and Mouth of Sauron do not damge enough in my opinion. Again Rohan heroes is nearly "perfect" in both health and damage I think.

6) Again, Lurtz with bow is not sufficient enough. Bregond with bow could also get a little stronger, but only a little I think. Faramir is good both ranged and melee if you ask me.

7) As of now I think that Gandalf is far too weak (considered his cost - for now I would say he should cost 2000-2500) I think that both Wizard Blast and Word Of Power should damage units to the "red bar" - Wizard Blast now do only half the health of units (which I don't think is enough) I agree that these abilities should not kill all units in the area, especially when units are clumping) That would be to overpowered in my opinion. I think that damaging to the "red bar" would be a reasonable solution. I would like to say that I think that Saruman is good though (he is as he should be, perfect) Although I would wish that his fireball were much stronger, against everything, especially heroes (like in the vanilla game, he used to have a significant damage on heroes.) Éomer's spear is also kinda useless to me (Do not damage enough) Théoden's favor was also better before - just normally experience. Nazgul's curse blade is also kinda useless to me ( I never use it) Mouth Of Sauron's beam does not damage enough, but all his other abilities are great and usefull. I would also like to say that you did an excellent job with Sharku, he has really improved since vanilla were he was extremely vulnerable.

8) I think I already answered that question above.

9) I think Word Of Power and Wizard Blast should damage to the "red bar" not the yellow as it is now - that is too low.

--- Ende Zitat ---
I agree with you man with all points.Especially about wizard heroes.Blast and wop is really weak.Also fireball ability is so weak.Cant kill even gondor knights(without armor).
Also Sauron with ring should be stronger.(he has a little damage even though his attack speed is slow).Also Witchking is weak, too wrt his cost.And Aragorn is useless I think.

Adrigabbro:

--- Zitat von: Lord of Mordor am 11. Jun 2015, 04:37 ---We wanted heroes to shine when used in combination to normal troops, with the troops guarding the hero and the hero supporting the army. They should not be one-man armies, but they should still have a significant influence on the battlefield if you combine them with your soldiers and play them well.
--- Ende Zitat ---

First, I'd like to say that I completely agree with you on that point and that you globally managed particularly well.


1) I like Sauron, all Nazguls, Lurtz, Ugluk, Saruman, Faramir, Aragorn, pretty much all Rohan heroes and especially Rohan captains.
On the other hand I dislike Mollok (I think Mordor doesn't need such a hero and removing him wouldn't harm the faction; plus he is not lore frendly). I think Gandalf's Istari Light should be removed in favor of a leadership because his supporting aspect is totally forgotten. Finally I'd nerf Grima again on his base damage and survivability while reducing his price so that his non fighter but vicious threat aspect is clearly shown.

2) Mollok is the only one.

3) Heores are both very fun and important.

4) They have the very right amount of health.

5) Melee damage are fine but there's one thing that is not fine at all in my opinion: it is the damage of flying units/heroes on catapults; although it was too high in 3.8.1, it is now far too low.

6) I don't really know on that one. It feels like ranged damag eare low but in the same time it would be OP if ranged heroes got more damage, right?

7) 8) 9) I think Gandalf is worth recruiting only if you have a lot of resources to spend (unlike Sarum who is I think much stronger). His wizard blast damage is quite ok but word of powers' is not: for a level 10 ability of such a powerful hero, I do think it should kill all non elite units in a large radius.


EDIT: Special mntion to Theoden and his glorious charge: it is so fraking awesome.
I also forgot to state that I've found one thing very frustrating: it's the fact that Sauron (in all forms) has to come near the building he wants to influence, that's against fun. Same thing for Denethor and his upgrade to a banner carrier. It would be so much better, I think, if there was no range restriction on those powers.

ziqing:
Gondor: Useful
Boromir is definitely the core hero here, he has the most powerful leadership and very useful skills.
Faramir is also good, unfortunately he could only be recruited through ranger camps, or he will definitely be the most common hero
Beregond is good, he only costs 1000 after all and could give some defense bonus for building

Not useful

Aragorn is too expensive for a pure hero killer, I mean for his cost he should definitely be the main hero for late stage. My suggestion is as always, make Aragron change his role from hero killer to unit supporter with hero killer aspect as he follows his destiny. As ranger he is a pure hero killer, with ranger cloak he is like an assassin. From the second form he should gradually have stronger leadership and maybe lose part of his hero-killer aspects, we should think a way to avoid the leadership from becoming too strong together with Boromir and Faramir 's. I think there is more than one threads here for the discussion of this topic.

Imrahil: He is a good supplement for Gondor. But I hardly ever get him in a real game. Because I really don't build fortress that much. Maybe we should make him more accessible in the future.

Gandalf: As a 3000 hero with a power only to support him, he is really not worth it. My suggestion is to cancel that white wizard power, gandalf could transform from grey to white at level 5 when he get shadowfax, and maybe also give him some fear resistance leadership. To make his fire ring counts, maybe we should Gandalf more of a supporter instead of massive killer. Actually, looking at all his current abilities, lighting sword and white light are effective towards enemy heroes, which makes him more like a hero killer.

Rohan has the most reasonable hero design, all heroes have clear roles and are of reasonable price. Theoden is the most important one, he is very cheap and could provide a leadership and other support  in very early game. He could transform to his battle form for free with a 3-points power. The next important one is Gamling， his summon ability of lv 2 farmer is ridiculously strong in the early game, not to mention his ability to regenerate units of all maps. The third one is Eomer, his looting leadership is a very important supplement for Rohan's economy in the middle and late stage of game,they need a lot of money to train rohan riders and purchase upgrades after all, since we cann't change from farmer-based army to rider-based army naturally. Other heroes are also useful in their own way.

Isengard doesn't rely on hero too much. Uglak is the most useful hero in my opinion, for his dark medicine and march ability and his late game leadership. Lutrz is a hero killer, but that's all about it. Saruman is not very useful, but thanks to Isengard's powerful economy it is not a big deal to recruit him in the middle game. Shakru is only useful when you decide to use warg riders, but since warg riders are not powerful enough to be used as main force of Isengard, he is not that useful, but again I would definitely recruit him if I choose to use warg riders. I never use Grimma or lutz in the game, and to be honest I do not think Grimma deserve to be a hero candidate, a summon from Saruman is enough. My suggestion has been posted before, that makes Saruman a early stage hero, which is basically a unit and building supporter and will transform to his battle form via an upgrade. Since no one pays attention, I would rather keep it that way.

Mordor: I always thought Mordor has more than enough unit diversity but not very satisfying recruitment mechanism, as for heroes, witchking and khamul are too expensive(considering they need fortress and upgrades), while mordor doesn't have extra economy supports(the orcs are free, but they cann't be transformed into economic advantages). The other two Nazguls are also easy to kill, black rider horde is much more powerful and sustainable but they are too expensive. Two orcs heroes are the most common and important hero for mordor, although Gothmog is also very weak in the battle field. Mouth of Sauron seems useful, but again, he is too expensive and highly relies on the level of Necromancer. Mollock is very uncommon for me, and based on my limited experience he is too easy to be killed consider his cost(he recovers too slow)

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