Heroes - how powerful should they be?

[Skeeverboy]

his lvl 1 skill do more dmg to units and do nothing to heroes

Yes, because he is a masslayer and not a herokiller. But Gandalf makes more as 500 DMG (herokillerstrength) and his level 2 and 7 skill can kill heros easy.

[Gandalf The Gray]

one hero as you said he is a mass slayer and he  dies fast

[Skeeverboy]

one hero as you said he is a mass slayer and he  dies fast

What do you mean exactly?

[Elite KryPtik]

Gandalf's armor and health are fine, that's not the problem. The problem is how noticeable he is, even in the middle of an army. Once you have GTW, he shines like a beacon, or in the case of your enemy, like a target. That is why he dies, because people focus him down first.

Shelobs web is currently suffering from the exact same bug that Corrupted Théoden used to have on his traitors ability, even though the cursor makes it seem like it will affect a single unit, it actually affects many units. The fix is simple, just give it a small radius, the same way you did to Theodens traitors ability. It would not at all affect her ability to kill heroes, which is her role, it would just prevent her from freezing entire armies for the slaughter.

Finally, I don't think that we should look at heroes being too weak or too strong on a general, faction wide basis, but rather should address them individually. For example, Saruman and Gandalf both die extremely easily due to them being so noticeable in the midst of an army, so maybe they should have more armor against arrows. I think that when you just do general nerfs or buffs on all heroes in the game, you end up with less balanced heroes then if you look at them individually, based on cost, how noticeable they are in your army, and finally how good their abilities are.

[Lord of Mordor]

@Gandalf The Gray: This is a topic about hero strength in general, if you want to discuss Gandalf in particular more in-depth, feel free to create a new thread for him.

As some have already said, we will try units with 20% less health in the next version to see how that feels and how people enjoy it. Do you think heroes should also get 20% less health alongside that? Or do you think they're already fragile enough?

We've also been thinking about increasing hero armor against archers, because archer focus fire seems to kill heroes too easily at the moment. Unlike melee, there's not much you can do against it, if you keep your hero surrounded by defenders the enemy can still focus him with the entirety of his archers. I think it's more interesting if you actually have to get close to heroes, then it becomes a question of how safe you can keep yours and how much risk you take with them.

Shelobs web is currently suffering from the exact same bug that Corrupted Théoden used to have on his traitors ability, even though the cursor makes it seem like it will affect a single unit, it actually affects many units. The fix is simple, just give it a small radius, the same way you did to Theodens traitors ability. It would not at all affect her ability to kill heroes, which is her role, it would just prevent her from freezing entire armies for the slaughter.

That didn't actually solve the Theoden problem. If an ability affects more than one single unit, it will always hit every single unit in that spot - thanks to clumping that can be an entire army. That's why we had to give traitors a timer, there was literally no way to prevent you from stacking all your peasants on top of each other and turning them all into traitors. We can reduce the AoE of Shelob's web, but it will always hit all units in that area. There's no way to code it so it will always hit only one unit.

[Elite KryPtik]

I have personally tested your fix on traitors, and unless you have your peasants perfectly stacked, it is MUCH harder to get more than 2 units of traitors at once. The original ability had a much bigger radius, and you could sloppily put your peasants somewhat close together and end up for 4-5 battalions fairly easily. This fix should work well for the web too, I'm certain of it, anyways it can't hurt to try can it?

[Gandalf The Gray]

well i think some heroes for they role need more work i dont speak just for gandalf you know eomer is a mass slayer and he is not that good at mass killing and also he dies fast too so how can he mass slay when they kill him so fast so give him more armor and leave the hp as it is

[Skeeverboy]

As some have already said, we will try units with 20% less health in the next version to see how that feels and how people enjoy it. Do you think heroes should also get 20% less health alongside that? Or do you think they're already fragile enough?

When the damage be the same how in the moment, than it is ok when they have the same livepoints. But then their normal Attack must be weaker, because with the same Attack how now they will kill so heroic Units and trolls to easy.

This fix should work well for the web too, I'm certain of it, anyways it can't hurt to try can it?

The radius isn't very big in the moment I think.
It is just this:

All Units in this area be frozen. When you don't clumb the most of your units won't freeze.

But I think the Shelob diskusion don't come in this threat.

well i think some heroes for they role need more work i dont speak just for gandalf you know eomer is a mass slayer and he is not that good at mass killing and also he dies fast too so how can he mass slay when they kill him so fast so give him more armor and leave the hp as it is

Yes, Eomer need a litle buff, but when he has to much armour and livepoints he will be a tank, not a masslayer.

[Adrigabbro]

Hi guys. Even though I haven't played for a while I'd like to react to a few things. If I'm saying outdated bullshit, don't go too hard on me.

In general: In my view, all heroes are too weak in late game. Even if you have them in the middle of your army, their weak health and armor values mean that they end up dead much faster than your main army of troops. I think a balance should be found, between their health values originally and in the recent update that heavily nerfed them. I also don't understand why all heroes that can switch weapons, regardless of faction, deal half damage at range than they do in melee. Especially for Lothlorien, literally the archer faction, yet their weapon switch heroes are better in melee than at range.

Have you tried to put your heroes on defensive stance? It works quite well. Although it requires some micro because they are highly likely to stand still without attacking if you are not paying attention.
I can't deny I've had long games when epic battles happen one after another and my heroes keep dying. But it turned out almost eveytime I was the one to blame: it was not my opponent's move neither the game's blame.
Finally I have one major concern: I'm pretty sure if you want their late game buffs, heroes will also get early game buffs and I don't want that to happen: they are already quite strong ealry on when you don't have enough troops to take them down.

For Ring Heroes, I really don't see any point in giving the Ring to Corrupted Théoden, all his abilities are basically the same, just a little bit stronger. I think that Grima with the Ring needs an overhaul, that changes Rohan to a corrupted version of its former self, with permanent Traitors, Traitor Archers, Traitor Cavalry, the whole deal. This would make a unique concept, making Rohans early game incredibly powerful if you gave Grima the Ring, but because Traitors cannot level up or receive upgrades, it would mean that late game they would be terrible. I also think that Glorious Theodens current tradeoffs for Ring abilities idea is really unfair. Look at all the other Ring heroes, they get those abilities for free with no penalties, so why can't Théoden have a new roster of abilities in addition to the tradeoff options? That would make him a lot better and fairer, because right now there is no question that Rohan has the weakest Ring Heroes, weakest heroes overall, and finally are the weakest faction in late game.

Ok for Grima, but I 100% disagree with you about Theoden. In what world is a global (and very strong by the way) leadership and 3 invincible heroes not strong enough? I believe he is as strong as other 'rgular' ring heroes (well, as you pointed out after, ring Saruman is off the topic because he is overpowered- I agree with you on that- ; and Sauron needs to be the strongest ring hero). He might be slow afterwards, what he gains remains incredibly powerful.

Concerning your other statements, I agree on almost everything (especially Drar, dwarven heroes' abilities that are bugged and the Black Arrow).
As for Bill Ferny, I'm unsettled. He is weak later on but I don't think he sohuld be better, at least I wouldn't like to see him. Don't really know what to do with him...

[Gandalf The Gray]

bil is good early cuz he dose good dmg.  saruman i think is ok he is not overpowered sauron as it should be is more powerful than saruman and saruman is a maiar as well so its make some sense he is not that easy to kill gandalf on the other hand is not that strong as a ring hero and i think he needs a buf

[Der Leviathan]

one hero as you said he is a mass slayer and he  dies fast

What do you mean exactly?

I think he means Gandalf is a mass slayer and he must fight at the front. And because he fights on the front, he gets damage. If he gets damage, he will be die.
And he will be die becaue he hasen't a high amor.
So a mass slayer needs a high armor^^

[Skeeverboy]

one hero as you said he is a mass slayer and he  dies fast

What do you mean exactly?

I think he means Gandalf is a mass slayer and he must fight on the front. And because he fights on the front, he gets damage. If he gets damage, he will be die.
And he will be die becaue he hasen't a high amor.
So a mass slayer needs a high armor^^

But than it is a tank
And when a Masslayer is a tank, and massslayer+tank is to strong.

[Gandalf The Gray]

yea thats kinda what i mean you know he should not hold alone but he should not die fast too

[Der Leviathan]

And when a Masslayer is a tank, and massslayer+tank is to strong

No. All players focus the masssylayer, because he has AoE. If all focus him he will die in short time.
Edit: So I agree Gandalf the gray.

[Elite KryPtik]

Ok for Grima, but I 100% disagree with you about Theoden. In what world is a global (and very strong by the way) leadership and 3 invincible heroes not strong enough? I believe he is as strong as other 'rgular' ring heroes (well, as you pointed out after, ring Saruman is off the topic because he is overpowered- I agree with you on that- ; and Sauron needs to be the strongest ring hero). He might be slow afterwards, what he gains remains incredibly powerful.

I'm not saying that his abilities aren't good, but I don't understand why he has to sacrifice armor and speed to get them. The other Ring heroes all get a full roster of new abilities and don't receive any penalties, except maybe Gandalf the Corrupted, be he is terrible as compared to Gandalf the Challenge Master so I never use him anyways. As I said, I think he should absolutely keep the tradeoff abilities, but he should also get some new abilities in addition to the tradeoffs.