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Autor Thema: Elrond - Lord of Imladris  (Gelesen 17115 mal)

TiberiusOgden

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Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« am: 13. Jul 2015, 22:27 »
This thread is primarily about Elrond and his skills.

Firstly  - Elrond's role. I always thought that he is strong hero supporter and secondarily unit supporter + ring hero. His abilities don't correspond with mass slayer role, such role have for instance Smaug as a big creature, Mollock as a terrible monster or Gandalf as a powerful wizard. So generally we can say that Elrond is hero supporter.

Elrond's abilities:

1) Loud waters fury
Elrond as a lore master from Imladris has river Bruinen under his control. When he becomes more wiser, his power over river is getting stronger.
So on level 1 water blast in targeting area with one horse, on level 3 two horses, on level 5 three horses, on level 7 four horses and finally on level 10 five water horses.
Spell deals more and more damage and for still larger and larger area, but it isn't so strong like ultimate spell from spellbook - there are seven horses and large area.
If isn't technically possible work with "horses" in this skill, so there can be firstly only water blast and for instance from level 5 his normal spell (there are two horses permanently I think), but logically effect (damage etc.) should be stronger as well.


3) Elrond's advice
Small amount of experience to hero
Iconinc ability from previous version

5) Armour of high elves
Elrond is able to see into the future and reveal the impending danger. He wears the armour of the high elves, which inspires elves on the battlefield, and leads them in order to prevent the future events.
Passive ability - bonus effect for friendly units
I think that he had or will have 25 % armour for him, 25 % faster experience and armour for units or something like that

7) Mount/dismount
Lord of Imladris is able to ride a horse
We know that he is able ride a horse quite a long time, since days of Arnor ...


and in the first Hobbit movie we can see him as a leader of Imladris cavalry:


... also it fits into the faction, Imladris will have melee cavalry and only Glorfindel and Arwen are able to ride.
Don't forget that Imladris will be the second "most cavalry faction" in the game and only two heroes there are able to ride a horse?
By the way - he is able to cast "horses" and he isn't able to ride on normal horse?


10) Vilya's restoration
Elrond is greatest healer and his abilities are supported by ring of preservation. Power of the elven ring helps Elrond to completely heal nearby allies and refresh ability timer of friendly heroes
Just look at it more closely:


- Bearer of Narya is Cirdan for Edain universe, because Gandalf is mass slayer and his abilities are sufficient and come from vanilla game. Ring of fire supports friendly units (their attack and armor) which is lore accurate. Cirdan has such spell on first level.
- Galadriel wears ring of water - Nenya on level 10, which protects her realm (heroes, units, buildings in wide area are protected and invulnerable). Again - very lore accurate matter.
- Vilya, ring of air, is in Imladris. Elrond in former version on level 10 is able to summon tornado for some time and that's a problem ... because we know, that elven rings of power aren't for battle purposes but only for preservation/protection. 
I feel that it isn't suitable and lore accurate (in comparison to Nenya or Narya which have brilliant implementations in the mod) and mainly - I think that his role is (or will be) very useful hero supporter, but destructive whirlwind doesn't correspond with his role.
So new ability could be effect of the Elven ring, mass heal and recovering of abilities for heroes, because it's mighty ability and Elrond isn't powerful sorcerer, so in that case his healing skills are supported by the Elven ring.


So overall effects for three Elven rings of power will be following:


Concerning design:

First four levels Elrond has bathrobe ... but Elrond is known for his love to armour:


So since level 5 armour from the first Hobbit movie: 


.... and on level ten his DG armour.


I suppose that everyone likes Elrond with his golden armor from Dol Guldur, which is more elegant than his Last aliance armor. I thought that he can have golden armor on level 10 with some resistance against magic (because it seems that he is quite immune against ringwraiths attack or presense of sauron, but it's only speculation).


Generally his last alliance armour should be for Arnor and he should be included in Last Alliance spell there.

« Letzte Änderung: 26. Jan 2016, 21:54 von DieWalküre »

Offline helloa2134

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Re: Elven rings of power and guy with many armours
« Antwort #1 am: 13. Jul 2015, 22:42 »
Personally I see no problem with Elrond's tornado. Elrond's role as a helper to others is fulfilled with his "Refresh" ability, which allows an allied hero to instantly use their abilities again.  I would argue that Refresh is Elrond's other iconic ability.  The tornado is a useful ability which should not be removed.

About Elrond's armor, I think the team needs to decide whether Elrond has his Brown and Silver armor OR his Golden armor, not both.  Personally, I would prefer the Brown and Silver armor, because the Dol Guldur armor looks more similar to his Last Alliance armor.

Offline Ealendril

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #2 am: 13. Jul 2015, 22:45 »
Well, we cant give Elrond a third armour, this would be definitly to much. I think it fits perfectly, that he wear his brown-silver armor at Level 5. Additionally, i dont have any motivation longer to create a third design for Elrond. [ugly]

Offline ziqing

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #3 am: 13. Jul 2015, 22:55 »
Nenya cann't protect the people of Lorien, they win the battle towards Dol Guldor by experienced warriors and sophisticated weaponry. The use of Nenya is to resist the poison and corruption on the woodland from Dol Guldor, thus preserving the living space for Galadrim. In my opinions, Galadriel's power related to Nenya shouldn't be anything directly related to battle. It could heal the friendly units, summon fog to retard enemy's movement, provide resistance to poison or give some bonus to Malorn Tree, something like that.

One of my thought, is make Galadriel's Nenya related her level, as she levels up to lv 3,5 ,7,10, the Malorn Trees(main economic building) will be gradually enhanced in production and protection.
And is there any of Cirdan's power really related to Narya?
« Letzte Änderung: 13. Jul 2015, 23:00 von ziqing »

Online DieWalküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #4 am: 13. Jul 2015, 22:57 »
I think I can post again here the proposal I made on the EIC once :)




Galadriel wears ring of water - Nenya on level 10, which protects her realm (heroes, units, buildings in wide area are protected and invulnerable). Again - very lore accurate matter.


I think it would be crucial, to be more in line with the lore and to avoid possible OP and balance problems, if Galadriel protected with Nenya only the structures of Lothlórien, excluding thus your allies' ones and even your own Mirkwood settlement.

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #5 am: 13. Jul 2015, 22:58 »
Additionally, i dont have any motivation longer to create a third design for Elrond. [ugly]
Ea I expected such argument ... xD ... and I think that it's little bit irrelevant, because you (team) already had full strength to rework Imladris warriors, how many times, thrice? :P

Maybe it will be sufficient rework his last alliance armor (because definitely there is inspiration from movie makers) in order to look like armor from DG. Elrond really deserve some "costume attention" - in the movie he had three versions of armour and ... at least seven bathrobes. :o

Edit: By the way - minor detail, it seems that Elrond model is without headband:

And is there any of Cirdan's power really related to Narya?
Just check his first spell  ;)
And concerning Nenya or Galadriel - during next days I will create special thread for this, this thread is about Elven rings in general and focuses on Elrond's tornado or armour. :P
So hold the topic otherwise our thread will be locked. :D
« Letzte Änderung: 13. Jul 2015, 23:28 von TiberiusOgden »

Online DieWalküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #6 am: 13. Jul 2015, 23:45 »
Nenya cann't protect the people of Lorien, they win the battle towards Dol Guldor by experienced warriors and sophisticated weaponry. The use of Nenya is to resist the poison and corruption on the woodland from Dol Guldor, thus preserving the living space for Galadrim. In my opinions, Galadriel's power related to Nenya shouldn't be anything directly related to battle. It could heal the friendly units, summon fog to retard enemy's movement, provide resistance to poison or give some bonus to Malorn Tree, something like that.

One of my thought, is make Galadriel's Nenya related her level, as she levels up to lv 3,5 ,7,10, the Malorn Trees(main economic building) will be gradually enhanced in production and protection.
And is there any of Cirdan's power really related to Narya?

I think we can continue here our little 'discussion' about Nenya and Galadriel, ziqing  :)

I think I have written a ton of posts about this topic, but it is really a great topic  8-)

I recognise the strength and power of Celeborn and the Galadhrim, and they were surely essential in the protection of Lothlórien.
BUT, Tolkien often and clearly stated many times that the bliss of Lothlórien and its safety depend primarily on Galadriel.

- She is a 8000+/20000 year-old Noldorin Princess from Valinor, born before the Sun and the Moon in the Years of the Trees, who has seen the Holy and Eternal Light of the Trees (something that Celeborn and the Guardian of the Grey Havens haven't, being born in Beleriand) and captured that light in her hair.
Tolkien once said that she is the greatest of the Noldor, comparing her to her uncle.

- Nenya is 'just' a powerful tool for her, that enhances her powers and allows her to slow and stop the flow of Time and the ineluctable decay of the World.
Her magical powers are far greater, and come from the Ancient Times of the Years of the Trees in Valinor; her powers are thus mixed with the powers of Nenya, a mighty mix that makes her one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth, someone that Sauron could have never defeated without the One Ring.

- In the dark and disenchanted Third Age, an Age dominated by Men, she appears to be more as a goddess, almost as a Maia, who is part of the legend, in the eyes of simple Humans and rustic Wood Elves (Mirkwood), as Legolas says, full of wonder, about the Golden Wood.

- You can't refer to Lothlórien, talking about its military power, leadership and defence, as if you were referring to the Kingdoms of Men, that obviously rely more on the their military strength and the value of their soldiers.
These elements are obviously present in the Golden Wood, but you have to consider that Lothlórien is a magical and enchanted place (one of the few ones in the Third Age), like Mordor, Rivendell, Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul; and Tolkien clearly states that these types of places are so dangerous or blissful because they are corrupted or blessed by Evil or Good Magic, and Magic always emanates from a powerful good or evil magical being, in these cases (in order) Galadriel, Sauron, Elrond and the Witch-king.

Not only does Galadriel make the Golden Wood a timeless and holy sanctuary, but she also protects it with its powers.
Galadriel is the SOURCE of all the Joy, Bliss, Timeless Atmosphere and Safety of Lothlórien, and when she leaves, after the War of the Ring, the Golden Wood gradually gets darkened and decays, to the point that, when Arwen goes there to die, it is totally unrecognisable.
Galadriel is also naturally recognised and acknowledged as a true leader and guardian by her People; a Light that always fights the Darkness.
This is what Haldir tells the Fellowship when it enters Lothlórien.


Probably the 'sophisticated weaponry' you are referring to is this  :P

« Letzte Änderung: 15. Jul 2015, 01:28 von DieWalküre »

Offline Ealendril

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #7 am: 13. Jul 2015, 23:50 »
Zitat
Ea I expected such argument ... xD ... and I think that it's little bit irrelevant, because you (team) already had full strength to rework Imladris warriors, how many times, thrice? :P
Got me!  :D

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #8 am: 13. Jul 2015, 23:54 »
I think we can continue here our little 'discussion' about Nenya and Galadriel, ziqing  :)
These walls of texts definitely aren't little discussion. :D :P

Online DieWalküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #9 am: 14. Jul 2015, 00:06 »
 Magic, the Three Rings and Lothlórien are pivotal themes in Tolkien's Universe.

And you know me, I can't contain myself when we talk about Galadriel  (**)


Galadriel is for me what the 'Iron Hills soldiers from BOTFA' concept is for LordDainIronfoot  :)
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Jul 2015, 00:16 von DieWalküre »

Tienety

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #10 am: 14. Jul 2015, 00:08 »
I think it is a good idea to add Elrond's Last alliance armor to level 10. If I know the his last alliance armor is not used in new version. :(

edit: or maybe Elrond can have Last alliance armor or Guldur armor in Arnor. I had this idea long time ago for new ultimate spell:
http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30925.0.html
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Jul 2015, 00:32 von Tienety »

Offline ziqing

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #11 am: 14. Jul 2015, 00:31 »
Dear DieWalküre, I respect your opinions and understanding of Middle earth and all these figures in LOTR. I think it is just we have different interpretations of Tolkien's world, there is nothing in your reply that I haven't read before. I am well aware that Galadriel and her ring is the main reason that Lorien could maintain prosperity and stick near the evil power from Dol Guldor,unlike Mirkwood. That's why I suggest her power to be directly related to the building and economy of Lorien, that's the very foundation of the faction and key to victory. And I agree with every Hymn and praise you have mentioned for Galadriel.

Back to this topic, I hold my previous point because the battle in Middle earth is about swords and shields, when Sauron or even Morgoth want to kill someone, he'd better put on armors and find a menacing mace to smash his target, instead of casting a spell that make his target burning to death; My point is that there is rarely supernatural power involved directly in the battlefield. That means despite all the hymns and mysteries related to Galadriel, if she wants to kill an orc or armored troll, she could only use sword and spear, like her brothers and all other Noldor warriors, Maiar like or not, that doesn't make any difference in battlefield.

About the leader role, just tell me how many battles have Galadriel really experienced, according to the book, despite all the 8000+ years she walks on earth? I only remember two, I don't want to mention there is rarely no record about her during the brutal war in First age. There is rarely any record of her performance in the last alliance, when Gil-Galad died in the dual against Sauron, or any other great wars before the downfall of Dol Guldor, during which for once she overpowered Sauron, when the ring was already destroyed and Sauron already lost all his power, before that Lorien elves could only defend themselves in their own territory.

Once again I want to say I agree with all the praises and hymns you have mentioned and your affection for this character. But this "light queen against Sauron" thing is not well accepted by everyone.
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Jul 2015, 00:53 von ziqing »

Online DieWalküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #12 am: 14. Jul 2015, 01:15 »

Dear ziqing, probably, with some differences, we are saying the same thing.
I never demanded (you can check all my posts out in this website) an OP concept of Galadriel, making her fight with both powerful spells and sword and armour (even if it were possible), because I am well aware that primarily there are crucial balance and gameplay issues, not to say that we are talking about a game set in the War of the Ring.

If you look at my old EIC proposal in my first comment of this thread, you will notice that it has its roots specifically on structures/defence/settlement of Lothlórien; the point is tying the last power of Galadriel (Nenya) also to the structures/settlement of the faction of Lothlórien (Tree House), not only to be more in line with the lore, but primarily to make you really 'feel' that Galadriel is the leader of the faction, she's a guardian and she's a very characteristic hero that can protect her settlement with her Magic, an innovative power that no hero has so far.
This 'tool' (magical protection of the settlement) was available in the previous Edain Mod 3.8.1 only via an upgrade, but Galadriel, if the concept will be implemented, will be able to personally cast this spell/upgrade as a power of hers, as she will also personally give her Gifts to the heroes in the Edain Mod 4.0 (something that again was only available via the Spellbook as a power).
These are, in my point of view, significant things that define the essence of a hero in the Edain Mod and make you really 'feel' the character, just as the Witch-king is capable of using his mount or his burning sword, or Gandalf using his spells.
These elements were not so evident and present, speaking about her, and that's why she has been radically changed; and it was a decision of the Edain Team, not mine.
They also admitted that, to be the leader of her faction, was not fun nor enjoyable to play with, as if she didn't have a proper position/role to fit in.
I never really asked for a sword or an armour.

About the lore, those were not just hymns or praises of mine, but the very words of Tolkien, that often in the books (even in apparently-inappropriate parts) indicates and refers to Galadriel's might; I didn't make up anything.

Galadriel was not involved, in a relevant way, in battle until the Third Age, but we know precisely that, during her more-than-1000-year permanence in Aman, was personally taught by the Valar (why not also by Tulkas himself) and was, already there, as a young elf-maiden, recognised as the greatest elf-maiden of the Noldor, and named also Nerwen, for her incredible physical strength; and we also know that the standards of the definition of 'being powerful' at that time (Years of the Trees), among those Elves (Royal Family of the Noldor), were immensely higher that the ones of the Third Age.
Galadriel could fight with a sword and an armour in the Third Age, but she can easily avoid to do it, since she has immense magical powers.
Really, they are not hymns, they are solid lore facts and reasons that should help you to understand her real and deep essence and might in the Third Age, and there are many more facts that I could refer to.


Anyway, my proposal about Nenya doesn't directly deal with Galadriel's character in the First Age as a Warrior Princess; it would be interesting trying to recreate this concept, but it's not the main purpose of my idea.
WETA made a concept for her for BOTFA, and I think we could look at it as Galadriel in the First Age  :)

« Letzte Änderung: 16. Jul 2015, 14:10 von DieWalküre »

Offline ziqing

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #13 am: 14. Jul 2015, 01:21 »
So be it, "seeking common points while reserving difference".

Although I do hope her influence on building will be passive and automatic, just like Cirdan's on Lindon watchtower

Online DieWalküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #14 am: 14. Jul 2015, 01:29 »
So be it, "seeking common points while reserving difference".

Although I do hope her influence on building will be passive and automatic, just like Cirdan's on Lindon watchtower

In my proposal the concept is basically: once you have activated the power, all the units become temporarily invulnerable (just like in the previous Edain Mod 3.8.1), but, this time, if she is next to your Lothlórien settlement, all the settlement will temporarily shine and become invulnerable to every type of attack (especially the ones of the siege machines) and spell.
This is what basically happened in the Edain Mod 3.8.1 when you activated the upgrade 'Schutzbann Caras Galadhons' (Defence of Caras Galadhon, in English); but, this time, Galadriel will personally cast it on units, heroes and settlement (if she is closed to it).
A power that can be used to attack, making your army invulnerable before an assault, or to defend yourself, protecting the settlement.