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Autor Thema: Elrond - Lord of Imladris  (Gelesen 17218 mal)

Offline VectorMaximus

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #225 am: 25. Jan 2016, 23:12 »
As a huge fan of Elrond, thought I would wade into the crazy waters of this thread! I recently made a general list of Imladris suggestions, and an Elrond Rework was part of it. DieWalküre directed me this way, so I thought I might as well share it.

Elrond Halfelven

Lvl 1 – Flood: Same as in 3.8, this unleashes a small 2 horse flood that deals medium damage to units and negligible damage to structures. With One Ring – Become Wrath of the Bruinen – Full scale flood

Lvl 3 – Elrond’s Wisdom: Same ability as in 3.8.1, grants XP to targeted hero. With One Ring – Makes target hero lvl 10

Lvl 5 – Lord of Rivendell (passive): Elrond dons his armor from BOTFA, gaining bonus armor, damage, and providing leadership to surrounding units. With One Ring – Becomes High King of the Noldor – Elrond takes up the crown of Gil-Galad and leads the Noldor to a new age in Middle Earth, further increasing all gains made from ‘Lord of Rivendell’

Lvl 8 – Vilya the Ring of Air (passive): The power of Vilya helps to slow the fading of the Eldar, and allows the preservation of Rivendell through the Third Age. Reduces damage taken by building in the elven base and slowly heals allied units within the base proper. With One Ring – Becomes Aman in Arda – The power of the One Ring allows Middle-Earth to be remade in the image of Valinor, as is the dream of the Noldor. All Elven structures take massively reduced damage and heal all elven units in their vicinity swiftly, but dunedain allied units take continuous damage – a reference to how men would wear thin if they lived in the land eternal.

Lvl 10 – Rejuvenation: Elrond is the greatest healer of the Eldar on middle earth. Same effect as in the base game, a heal and ability reset. However, to make it worthy of lvl 10, I believe that in difference to base heals, Rejuvenation would heal units FULLY. With One Ring – Becomes Vilya Unbound; AKA TORNADO TIME. Elrond, now as High King, uses the power of the one to free the 3 Elven Rings. He no longer has time to devote to healing, save in extreme circumstances, so he loses Rejuvenation and regains his iconic tornado, which seemed slightly out of place as a base ability.

So, from what I have seen, the main questions in this thread have had to do about the Whirlwind, mounting, and how best to implement Vilya.

While I'm not too attached to the Whirlwind and would be willing to let it go, I'm not quite sure what I would replace in its spot for the ring-hero Elrond. I know there's a thread for that too, but my proposal in my Imladris thread has both in one, so you'll just have to deal with it.

Generally though, if we wanted to get rid of the tornado in my proposal, we could just make an amped up version of restoration for Ring-Hero Elrond.

As my proposal says, I personally believe Vilya's power is a passive and pervasive one, strengthening the buildings and surroundings of Imladris, not an active power that directly interacts with the world. Elrond's innate healing talents are what would go into the iconic rejuvenation ability. The passive of Vilya would replace the Tornado, arguably trading an active power of Vilya for a passive one.

For mounting, while the image of a rider on a horse is one used to depict a strong military leader, Elrond in my opinion does not need one.

Imladris should be one of the worst cavalry factions in Edain, because it has definitly the best melee units in game. Personally i think that a horse doesnt fit for Elronds gameplay and role. He is a mass slayer with support abilities. Maybe you should discuse this once more.....if you want.^^

I personally agree with Ealendril on this one. Rivendell in my mind is an infantry-heavy faction, not calvary based. As such, it seems to me enough that Glorfindel and Arwen can mount, while Elrond leads the infantry.

And yes, I'm aware now that the team has no plans to make the BOTFA armor, but I didn't know when I made the proposal.
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Offline DieWalküre

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #226 am: 26. Jan 2016, 00:22 »
Yes, this topic is quite wide and vast, like the wild yet free lands of Middle Earth  xD

As you can see, many suggestions have been made, and many answers have been given too.
Just, the only quite clear element I feel to point at is the very probable intention of the Edain Team of replacing Elrond's tornado with a more lore accurate and suitable representation of Vilya; and, I completely agree with you about the main characteristics that this new ability should have in order to display accurately the real nature of this Ring and the Three Rings in general, as we wrote and discussed about both in this section and in the lore one  :)

Slowing the flow of Time and decay of the World, recreating a mortal reflection of the Undying Lands.

This is the core of everything; something that could be greatly implemented in the gameplay, focusing on what makes also Rivendell specific and unique (preservation, healing, protection, sanctuary-like atmosphere,...).
So, as I have always indicated as well in my previous posts, this proposal has my total approval.

There is also a comment of Ealendril which seems to go in this same direction  :)

Zitat
So you also agree that whirlwind is quite exaggerated and that vilya should better fit to the rest of elven rings. As we suggested - some ultimate heal fits perfectly and such heal is de facto currently implemented at level 8 in the game (I think). There can be only change for higher level and the picture of vilya will be the same as well.

Yes, thats what i meant.^^


P.S. My previous considerations about this matter.

« Letzte Änderung: 26. Jan 2016, 00:34 von DieWalküre »

Offline The_Necromancer0

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #227 am: 26. Jan 2016, 05:26 »
This thread is almost bigger than the vast armies of Gorgoroth, so i'll add my two cents.
When it comes to the abilities I personally think that it is more fit for Elrond to gain improved abilities as he gains level, although maybe not that much. I think the abilities should have only 4 forms: standard, upgrades 1&2 and ring form.

For "Flood" I think that it should be something like Level 1: 1 horse, Level 4: 2 horses, Level 7: 4 horses and then the ring ability would be a full scale flood like in vanilla.

On Elrond's advice it's the other way around, I think we should have some upgrades as he gains levels to show his knowledge expanding as time goes. Therefore on the level it's unlocked it should grant quarter of a level of xp and level 10 it should grant a full level. This would make a real difference between his beginning self and his former self.

Armor of the High Elves
Nothing to say here, I like the concept presented by VectorMaximus

Vilya
Here I think the passive ability nailed it, I really don't see Elrond mounting a horse, he is barely seen like that and it doesn't fit him as a unit supporter to be able to charge head first into battle ahead of all the troops. I would probably change the effect of the though to less damage and small armor or damage buff and then once he ceases the ring make it that they heal.

Rejuvenation
I also really like that concept, as for the tornado I seem to remember a long time ago that somebody proposed the idea of putting them together. While it is not the most lore-accurate it could be that once Elrond gains the one ring he no longer wishes just to protect but to make all of Middle-Earth like Valinor and therefore all of his abilities take a slight offense role giving us this:

Elrond's Advice
Can now be cast on enemy heroes, the heroes listen to the commanding voice of Elrond which leads them to their own doom. They can't gain experience and their abilities recharge slower for 1 minute.

Vylia
The might and will of Elrond to make all of Middle-Earth like Valinor spreads through the foundations of the earth and hinders the enemy buildings. Settlements, and settlements only, now only produce half as much, or train units half as fast.

Finally rejuvenation becomes a passive heal which can transform into an active tornado once the player clicks on it , representing Elrond unstoppable will.

Obviously this will need tweaking since even from where I'm standing it seems a bit op but the key concept that I(m trying to show here is the corruption that the ring brings to the hero, amplifying their flaws by a hundredth and multiplying the extent of their deepest desires by a million.

Offline VectorMaximus

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #228 am: 26. Jan 2016, 14:16 »
I could see the flood getting upgraded as he levels up. However, I think the Elrond's Advice has to give more XP then what you are describing, or at least have a low cooldown, otherwise it doesn't seem like its worth much.

Me and DieWalküre discussed in my Imladris thread about the Tornado. Here's what we said.

Especially, in some of the last pages, I had pointed out the fact that I didn't and still don't like a tornado (therefore a destructive representation of Magic) to be related to the healing and preserving nature of Vilya, which, as you rightly wrote, was made to create a sort of mortal reflection of Valinor/Eldamar/Eressëa in Middle Earth, in a mournful and sad desire of recreating what the Eldar had lost after having chosen the Exile from Aman (very recurrent theme in their creations).

My response;

I do agree heavily that the Whirlwind is highly out of place and is not canonical at all - but it is such a iconic ability I felt somewhat guilty about removing it completely, so I believed that it was an appropriate ability for a ring-hero, showing the destructive capability of the One while removing his rejuvenation, showing that even though Elrond could wield the One and its might, it would come at a cost, in this case, his ability to heal.

So my personal opinion still aligns with my original proposal - Remove rejuvenation and give Elrond back his Whirlwind as Ring-Hero. This would show the rings corruptive and more destructive nature, as well as preserving one of his iconic abilities. However, as I've said before, I don't care an immense amount about the tornado. In my opinion its far more important to get Vilya implemented correctly (preferably as the passive I described). :)

Elrond's Advice
Can now be cast on enemy heroes, the heroes listen to the commanding voice of Elrond which leads them to their own doom. They can't gain experience and their abilities recharge slower for 1 minute.

Vylia
The might and will of Elrond to make all of Middle-Earth like Valinor spreads through the foundations of the earth and hinders the enemy buildings. Settlements, and settlements only, now only produce half as much, or train units half as fast.

Finally rejuvenation becomes a passive heal which can transform into an active tornado once the player clicks on it , representing Elrond unstoppable will.

I really like your idea for the One-Ring upgrade for Elrond's Advice. Would it still give XP to allied heroes its cast on? Also, I believe that the Witch-King(Angmar) as the ring-hero had the ability you're talking about, hindering production globally (though I'm not sure if it will be in 4.0).
« Letzte Änderung: 26. Jan 2016, 14:19 von VectorMaximus »
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Offline Spacetyrant93

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #229 am: 26. Jan 2016, 15:53 »
Huge thread is huge XD

As Elrond is among my favorite heroes, I'd like to put my two cents in. I agree with Tiberius's original idea (first post), as he loses pretty much nothing of what he was and gains new, iconic abilities.

I really liked his original flood and the fact that it gets stronger as he levels up, (ike he's getting the hang of it XD) plus it's a really lore based iconic abilit of his, so it should stay.

Zitat
On Elrond's advice it's the other way around, I think we should have some upgrades as he gains levels to show his knowledge expanding as time goes. Therefore on the level it's unlocked it should grant quarter of a level of xp and level 10 it should grant a full level. This would make a real difference between his beginning self and his former self.


This I approve, given that Rivendell's base is the studying and learning of ancient crafts and arts, it really fits here.

About the horse, I see no actual problem with him riding one, as one could think he patrols the borders of his land with his soldiers. Despite whatever role Imladrish might have among the other faction cavalry-wise, I believe Elrond would be fit to be able to ride, since he, just like Arwen, has been shown on horseback.
Also, one thing I always really liked about Elrond, was the fact that, unlike many other mounted Elves (except Thranduil) his steed is dark in color. Asfaloth (both Aren's and Glorfindel's XD) is a white stallion, and in AUJ too the guards rode steeds that were mostly white-gray, but Elrond's mount was dark brown, that perfectly fit his armor and hair color. Stupid point I know, but still, I really think it helps him stand out.

For the armor thing, I actually prefer the AUJ one, but since that's already implemented, that goes fine by me. The robe is fine, as it creates a theme with the other Elven Lords (Celeborn and Thranduil both start with robes, and later get Armor). As for the Dol Guldur armor, It would really fit his level 10, giving resistance to magic and a little stronger stats, just a little bit though. True, that would be yet another skin to work on and all that, but to be fair, Elrond has the most varied wardrobe we've seen among Elves (benefitting also for being among the most recurring characters right after Gandalf). Plus, once the player has Imladris's other troops all golden, he would seem...diminished with the brown armor. And it would be different from Thranduil, whose troops were colored in the bronze of sapling trees, but he himself wore a freaking silver piece (with Mithril elements it's speculated). So Elrond going from dark and silvery to golden would not really be out of place.
PS: I prefer Dol Guldur armor to Last Alliance, more elaborate and those freaking green pants! It's always a punch in the eye when I see them DX

I agree about the power of Vilya, as it fits perfectly. But I would add that the buildings in the base also get a passive repair that's a bit faster than the usual, which might be a bit much, but still, it's a level 10 ability we're talking about here. Lore accuracy has already be widely explained :)
Perhaps, though, this would downplay Narya...

But, I also go with The Necromancer0's Ring hero suggestion, especially the part where Vilya gets passive healing and goes Tornado! It fits with the One Ring part, and Ealendril  said he's a mass slayer, so a tornado helps that.



Offline DieWalküre

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #230 am: 27. Jan 2016, 00:11 »
I would just like to add something else I really consider useful for the discussion, in my opinion.

As I have already wrote on VectorMaximus' Imladris thread, the One Ring mechanism of Imladris will probably be radically changed, along with the faction's Ring Hero, of course.
Something really innovative and definitely more accurate, as it has always been a bit problematic trying to imagine Elrond or another High Elf of his 'court' using such an evil tool, with also destructive powers at hand.

There is a specific topic regarding this interesting question: will Rivendell's mechanics concerning the One Ring change in the 4.0 version?
In that same topic, you will see that I and other people tried also to give solid lore facts and explanations to object many Elven characters that were brought into the debate as suitable candidates as possible new Ring Heroes.

So, if I can give an advice, I wouldn't focus, now, on Elrond and the One Ring, unless official news are revealed by the Edain Team (and I won't say anything too)  :)

Regardless of that, I agree with the points raised about Vilya and the healing/restoring conceptual nature of Elrond himself; also, if it depended on me, I would just totally replace the tornado (if it will be still available via different forms/powers) as an inappropriate ability for this particular hero, and find another one that could fit better (determined by the general boundaries we examined so far).

My statement about Elrond as a Ring Hero.

Zitat
If you scroll down a bit this section, you will find that they were made other proposals about Elrond and the One Ring, being his case maybe the most problematic one to be related to a totally evil artefact like the One Ring itself.
Specifically, in this thread you will see that the Edain Team will probably find another more innovative solution for Imladris, rather than the regular Ring Hero that tries to control the One Ring and to bend its powers with different results depending on the faction.

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30970.msg392588.html#msg392588

I think that I know what we could possibly see, but I won't reveal anything, not even speculations, if it is not officially announced by the Edain Team itself  :)
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Jan 2016, 00:20 von DieWalküre »

Offline DieWalküre

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #231 am: 31. Jul 2016, 23:03 »
This very iconic and significant thread has been moved to the proper place it rightly belongs to, in hopes that it will still continue to be a gathering place for every suggestion regarding our beloved Lord of Imladris  :)

MOVED

Offline Amandil7

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #232 am: 1. Aug 2016, 01:32 »
Judging from the beta videos, i think Elrond's level 10 ability should maybe last a bit longer and do slightly more damage.