[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Imladris Suggestions

Elrond - Lord of Imladris

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Bogdan Hmel:
Greetings to all the fans Edain mod. Let me make my suggestion regarding Lord Imladris. Immediately apologize for my English.
I agree that Elrond should be more powerful and cost 3000
But I do not agree with your proposal, Walküre and Tiberius Ogden. First, you say that skills must be unique, but you want to remove the “Restoration” - Elrond’s most iconic skill.
Secondly, you want to add more mass slayer skills. My opinion, it is the obsession with the role of the character that makes the game boring. There is nothing worse than a hero who has 5 one-sided skills.
At the same time, I omit the argument that Elrond during the "War for the Ring" is not suitable for the role of a mass slayer.
Thirdly, the desire to make a modification as much as possible corresponding to knowledge, very complicates the game. Do not forget that this is, first of all, a computer game.
I want my opinion to look like constructive criticism, I do not want to offend you, Walküre and Tiberius Ogden. You are the leaders of this community and have done a lot for him.

Now back to Lord Imladris himself
I also want Elrond to be stronger and more interesting. In addition, I think he is not very useful up to level 5 - water horses do little damage, and the ability to mount a horse gives almost nothing.
I have two suggestions for changing Elrond. Both are built around three ideas. First: Elrond is the best healer of Middle-earth, he must have one skill with healing. Secondly, his ability to mount a horse is boring and takes one slot, I suggest (this idea was expressed earlier) to combine the ability to mount a horse and the ability of “Ancient Equipment”. By the way, it will be unique, not a single hero has a leadership and a horse in one slot. And finally, the ability of "Rage of the Loudwater " looks like a mockery of the power of the lord Imladris. I propose to carry it to later levels and make it more powerful.
So, option 1:
Level 1: Wise Advice. Elrond is one of the wisest inhabitants of Middle-earth, he helps advice to other heroes. The selected hero temporarily gets an increased vision range and + 50% gaining experience. At higher levels it's possible add an increase in the speed of movement.
Level 3: Ancient Equipment. This skill does not change, only the ability to mount a horse is added to it.
Level 5: Restoration. Please return healing to this skill!
Level 7: Rage of the Loudwater. It must be a really powerful stream.
Level 10: Vilya's Wrath. I propose to strengthen the ability with a passive bonus to surrounding units: + 25% armor against arrows. When a skill is activated, the bonus increases to 50%, Elrond surrounds himself with a whirlwind (More powerful than it is now) and additionally gets increased movement speed.Option 2: I have an idea to make the skill Vilya passive.  I saw that there was already someone offering, but I came up with it myself, honestly  :)
Ring Vilya. Lord of Imladris uses the strongest of the ring to heal wounds and protect allies. With gaining levels, this ability is enhanced. Level 1: Allies near Elrond slowly restore health when not fighting. Level 4: Allies get protection from poison and elemental damage. Level 6: Allies get protection from magic, buildings near Elrond — +50% armor. Level 9: The allies near Elrond get immune to fear, and enemies lose 10-15% of their movement speed. (This shows how Vilya slows down the passage of time).
Level 3: Ancient Equipment. This skill does not change, only the ability to mount a horse is added to it.
Level 5: Restoration. Since Elrond already has healing, I suggest adding a temporary bonus to heroes in the form of + 25% damage and armor.
Level 7: Rage of the Loudwater. It must be a really powerful stream.
Level 10: Vilya's Wrath. I propose to strengthen the ability with a passive bonus to surrounding units: + 25% armor against arrows. When a skill is activated, the bonus increases to 50%, Elrond surrounds himself with a whirlwind (More powerful than it is now) and additionally gets increased movement speed.In the end, it turns out that Vilya gives two abilities - it is unique and emphasizes that it is the main elven ring.
P.s. It would be cool if Elrond gets his gold armor at level 10.  :P
This option makes Elrond very strong, but this is exactly what I want. I used to offer to make the faction leaders more powerful ( https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35480.0.html ). New skills Galadriel make her just that.

Tiberius Ogden:
You've basically created Elrond from 3.8.1. and threw brick not only into our proposal, but into Edain mod concepts and roles as well. :P
I agree with you that roles can be complicated (for instance in Lorien or Rohan are heroes with "forced roles" for me), but Imladris concerning roles is fine and everything fits quite well.


--- Zitat ---But I do not agree with your proposal, Walküre and Tiberius Ogden. First, you say that skills must be unique, but you want to remove the “Restoration” - Elrond’s most iconic skill.
Secondly, you want to add more mass slayer skills. My opinion, it is the obsession with the role of the character that makes the game boring. There is nothing worse than a hero who has 5 one-sided skills.
At the same time, I omit the argument that Elrond during the "War for the Ring" is not suitable for the role of a mass slayer.
Thirdly, the desire to make a modification as much as possible corresponding to knowledge, very complicates the game. Do not forget that this is, first of all, a computer game.
--- Ende Zitat ---

By the way these points we've already answered either here or on Moddb many times and we're stick to our arguments, which are pretty solid.

OakenShield224:
I know I said earlier that I support this idea, but the more time that passes, the more I’m starting to change my mind.

Firstly, I’m not entirely sure about the effect of full invincibility over all your castles/camps. I guess this would also apply to the tier 4 power for Angmar as well. While the Angmar power is slightly more reasonable since it would only affect the base that has the Stronghold of the Iron Crown, the balance doesn’t really make as much sense since the Angmar power is harder to access but has a lesser effect (just considering the invincibility not the other effects). The main issue I have with Elrond’s power is that it massively reduces comeback potential for the player that isn’t Imladris especially if they aren’t doing as well as the Imladris player which is likely as you’d only really have access to the power if you are in the late game. In general, it would massively increase snowballing (speaking as someone who isn’t a beta tester and so doesn’t know what the Team are doing to work on that issue for 4.5). I also just think that it isn’t really that interesting of a power and can limit the gameplay. There’s no need for having to outsmart or outplay your opponent if you can power straight through any attempts that they might have with invincibility. There are some more interesting ideas that could be done with the concept of a timeless sanctuary (some of which have been suggested by Aule in this thread).

I also have issues with the fact that Elrond’s role as a healer through Restoration has been removed. I know the points that Tiberius has made about Elrond’s current Restoration not having a heal and Walkure’s points about Galadriel being the new big hero supporter. However, let us not forget that Elrond was the greatest healer present in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring. He personally healed Frodo from the Morgul blade, something which I feel is much more important for the whole story and more iconic than Galadriel letting Gandalf recover in Lorien or appearing to Frodo in a vision in the film. In addition to that, he healed his wife Celebrian and it can be assumed that he taught Aragorn, Elladan and Elrohir the elven healing methods (after the Battle of Pelennor Fields, Aragorn calls for the Twins to help him heal the wounded). Elrond was a healer first, warrior second, and it seems a shame to have most of his abilities focus on the later.

With the argument that Arwen is the hero supporter for Imladris…well she isn’t really. She has a heal and the hero buffs via the spellbook but that’s it. She then has a fear ability, a speed increase and unit support ability. She’s about as much of a hero supporter as Aragorn is. Arwen will also become less effective as a hero supporter in 4.5, with her spellbook buff going from increased healing and power restoration to just better healing. If you are worried about the faction having too much healing, then there are other ways of representing Elrond’s influence (for example the restoration of powers). If you’re then worried about not having enough spaces in Elrond’s ability slots, then his mount could be included in Ancient Equipment. With the balance issue involved with the Last Alliance, any ability restoration powers could be modified so that they only affect permanent heroes, therefore avoiding the issue of having Gil-Galad devastate enemies twice in a short space of time. Then there’s the issue of Galadriel having similar abilities and it not being “unique” enough. Well I’ve already argued for how Elrond is more deserving of the healing and restoring role than Galadriel. Plus, if you’re only going to allow abilities for how unique they are, then it would just get increasingly more difficult to make good concepts for the mod. Saying that Elrond shouldn’t have the Restoration because Galadriel has it already would mean that you’d then have to rework Aranarth who can also restore abilities. The idea of making a base invulnerable isn’t “unique” as Angmar has a very similar ability as I have mentioned previously.

I realise that any changes at this stage would probably be a lot of work (changing Elrond’s plans or going over established heroes like Arwen or Galadriel). However, I feel like this would still be worth it and I hope that you will consider it in your plans.

Julio229:
Agreed fully with Oak's reasoning, we've discussed this and I have to agree that I'm not so sure about the invulnerability anymore, or Restoration going.

I don't have much to add, Oak explained it all pretty well, so looking forward to hear thoughts on this.

Tiberius Ogden:

--- Zitat ---Firstly, I’m not entirely sure about the effect of full invincibility over all your castles/camps.
--- Ende Zitat ---
As you said - we can say the same about Stronghold of The Iron Crown which at least for me sounds more OP because it is permanent. Vilya is purely temporar.


--- Zitat ---There are some more interesting ideas that could be done with the concept of a timeless sanctuary (some of which have been suggested by Aule in this thread).
--- Ende Zitat ---

No, there aren't.  ;)
I've suggested the same proposal as Aule - but we ruled it out with Walkure because speed recruitment for instance goes against logic of timeless. Vilya shouldn't accelarate speed, but completely contrary - slower it. It would mean that your oponent should be faster - ingame speaking - and not you. We think that  time aspect just isn't transferable into the game. Also support for structures has Cirdan.


--- Zitat ---I also have issues with the fact that Elrond’s role as a healer through Restoration has been removed. I know the points that Tiberius has made about Elrond’s current Restoration not having a heal and Walkure’s points about Galadriel being the new big hero supporter.
However, let us not forget that Elrond was the greatest healer present in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring. He personally healed Frodo from the Morgul blade, something which I feel is much more important for the whole story and more iconic than Galadriel letting Gandalf recover in Lorien or appearing to Frodo in a vision in the film.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Yes and no. He was great healer, but personally I see it in different way - Imladris was well known healing sanctuary not only because of Elrond healing skills, but also because of that place ... you could stay there as long as you wanted to regain your strength ... spa of Middle-earth. And this overall aspect is represented through the fountains and spellbook.
And concerning Galadriel - it was she who completely restored and healed Gandalf while Elrond was fighting with many Ringwraiths - even movie makers thought that Galadriel is hero supporter while Elrond like Saruman are mass slayers. :o
Not to mention her radiant aid across Middle-earth to Frodo. It clearly exceeded Elrond's healing skills.


--- Zitat ---Elrond was a healer first, warrior second, and it seems a shame to have most of his abilities focus on the later.

--- Ende Zitat ---

He was also the wisest elf in Middle-earth (of course there were Cirdan, Celeborn or Galadriel too, but none of them was so open and well known like Elrond). Gift of Foresight was also his dominant trait. Ok lets throw Edain roles under the train and include everything what we know or like concerning our heroes. :P


--- Zitat ---With the argument that Arwen is the hero supporter for Imladris…well she isn’t really. She has a heal and the hero buffs via the spellbook but that’s it. She then has a fear ability, a speed increase and unit support ability.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Well ... she is. xD ... Hero/unit supporter. But mainly ultimate healer of heroes. There isn't better hero healer than she.


--- Zitat ---If you are worried about the faction having too much healing, then there are other ways of representing Elrond’s influence (for example the restoration of powers).
--- Ende Zitat ---

Yeah, such half vanillla ability currently has and it's not fitting nor anything extra.


--- Zitat ---If you’re then worried about not having enough spaces in Elrond’s ability slots, then his mount could be included in Ancient Equipment.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Well, it's not typical. Mount is just a mount and armor usually comes with some buff for units/heroes.


--- Zitat ---Saying that Elrond shouldn’t have the Restoration because Galadriel has it already would mean that you’d then have to rework Aranarth who can also restore abilities.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Thanks for another reason to remove his restoration - it already isn't unique for Elrond because of Aranarth.
But funny thing is that Galadriel and Arannarth are hero supporters. But why mass slayer Elrond should have the skill which clearly fits only to hero supporter?


--- Zitat ---The idea of making a base invulnerable isn’t “unique” as Angmar has a very similar ability as I have mentioned previously.
--- Ende Zitat ---

It's pretty unique. Angmar ultimate spell is activated through spellbook and means permanent upgrade of your fortress. Vilya's protection is ultimate ability of the faction hero and is only temporar and doesn't add anything.


--- Zitat ---I realise that any changes at this stage would probably be a lot of work (changing Elrond’s plans or going over established heroes like Arwen or Galadriel)
--- Ende Zitat ---

Exactly. I can't imagine better mass slayer in Imladris, especially after Dol Guldur skirmish, than Elrond.
By the way, we think that Galadriel and Arwen are fine and have solid roles. :)

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