[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Imladris Suggestions

Elrond - Lord of Imladris

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Tiberius Ogden:

--- Zitat von: Bogdan Hmel am 30. Jan 2019, 15:33 ---Ring Vilya. Lord of Imladris uses the strongest of the ring to heal wounds and protect allies. With gaining levels, this ability is enhanced. Level 1: Allies near Elrond slowly restore health when not fighting. Level 4: Allies get protection from poison and elemental damage. Level 6: Allies get protection from magic, buildings near Elrond — +50% armor. Level 9: The allies near Elrond get immune to fear, and enemies lose 10-15% of their movement speed. (This shows how Vilya slows down the passage of time).
The advantage of Vilya over the other two rings will be that it works from level 1 and over time protects your troops more and more. And the skill is passive, which makes it unique compared to other rings.
P.s. But in this case, we have to remove the Arwen banner, as it also provides healing.
P.s.s. I always loved her ability to summon the Strider ;)

--- Ende Zitat ---

Stronger effect while levelling is already implemented in his first water ability.
Bonuses while Cirdan is levelling has Lindon tower.
And Strider is in Imladris, too.

Only True Witchking:
Now, I said I wanted to adress the points Tiberius made in response to OakenShield, but Julio has already done that. So I'll just propose my own idea how Elrond's skillset could look like; it's not a finished concept and instead more a rough outline.

This concept removes the mass-slayer aspect for the most part, and that could move to Glorfindel, Imladris are not really in great Need for a tank in my opinion. I will make a concept for him in another thread, because it obviously has not much to do with the topic.

Lvl 1 or 3: Mount/Dismount

This one should definitely stay, it's very useful and lore-friendly (Elrond is known for posessing a horse).
However, since this ability is not very powerful, it could be moved to lvl 1.

Lvl 3 or 1: Elronds advise
The selected allied hero gathers experience 33% faster, and his abilities recharge 33% faster as well. 2 minutes duration.
 
The current lvl 1 ability is partially fitting lore-wise, but the power of Bruinen is already in the spellbook and also not very supportive. This however would represent Elrond as he should be; a very old and knowledgeable elven-lord. The council of Elrond and the Rivendell chapter in The Hobbit are both very important for the Story, and both times, Elrond does not give power, but knowledge instead, so that they were prepared for their journey.
The ability also is a more balanced version of Restoration, but works on only one hero,
and instead of Galadriels healing, it gives experience.

Lvl 5: Ancient Equipment
Elrond gets a small aoe attack; +25% armour and a 25% armour boost for allies. Passive.

This also stays, it might not be 100% lore-friendly, however it fits to the movies and is very useful for Elrond, who after all is supposed to be a supporter in this concept.
He also participates in the attack on Dol Guldur, which shows that he will fight if the need is great.

Lvl 7: a) a passive heal or b) active heal
Oh well, Arwen stole not only Glorfindels horse, but with the help of the spellbook also Elronds greatest skill. And Galadriel (with help from Peter Jackson) played her part as well.   :(
I mean, even in the movies Arwen can't heal Frodo, so Elrond has to do it! Stealing little brat! :-|
Arwen rework is also planned.

Lvl 10: The Power of Vilya
For this one, I'm not sure yet. I'll think about it.


As I said, it's not a finished concept, and I'd like to hear thoughts. But please don't use the arguments that it would "change too much" or "doesn't fit in the established roles"; because that something is established doesn't mean it's good.
Sometimes, radical changes are the biggest improvements.

Signed,
A very tired Nazgul

Tiberius Ogden:
I wanted to ask who will be the new tank hero when Glorfindel will take Elrond's mass slayer role.
And then I saw this:


--- Zitat von: TheOnlyTrueWitchking am 30. Jan 2019, 22:28 ---Imladris are not really in great Need for a tank in my opinion

--- Ende Zitat ---

Ok. xD
I've considered Glorfindel to be the most interesting tank hero in the entire game, because he very nice way use light elven magic for his defense, which is pretty lore wise. We sadly can't say that about Thranduil.

https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35644.0.html

--- Zitat von: TheOnlyTrueWitchking am 30. Jan 2019, 22:28 --- Lvl 1 or 3: Mount/Dismount

This one should definitely stay, it's very useful and lore-friendly (Elrond is known for posessing a horse).
However, since this ability is not very powerful, it could be moved to lvl 1.

Lvl 3 or 1: Elronds advise
The selected allied hero gathers experience 33% faster, and his abilities recharge 33% faster as well. 2 minutes duration.
 
The current lvl 1 ability is partially fitting lore-wise, but the power of Bruinen is already in the spellbook and also not very supportive. This however would represent Elrond as he should be; a very old and knowledgeable elven-lord. The council of Elrond and the Rivendell chapter in The Hobbit are both very important for the Story, and both times, Elrond does not give power, but knowledge instead, so that they were prepared for their journey.
The ability also is a more balanced version of Restoration, but works on only one hero,
and instead of Galadriels healing, it gives experience.

Lvl 5: Ancient Equipment
Elrond gets a small aoe attack; +25% armour and a 25% armour boost for allies. Passive.

This also stays, it might not be 100% lore-friendly, however it fits to the movies and is very useful for Elrond, who after all is supposed to be a supporter in this concept.
He also participates in the attack on Dol Guldur, which shows that he will fight if the need is great.

Lvl 7: a) a passive heal or b) active heal
Oh well, Arwen stole not only Glorfindels horse, but with the help of the spellbook also Elronds greatest skill. And Galadriel (with help from Peter Jackson) played her part as well.   :(
I mean, even in the movies Arwen can't heal Frodo, so Elrond has to do it! Stealing little brat! :-|
Arwen rework is also planned.

Lvl 10: The Power of Vilya
For this one, I'm not sure yet. I'll think about it.

--- Ende Zitat ---

It's basically similar to Elrond from 3.8.1 (I was great fan of his abilities by the way and liked them a lot, but I fear that ship has sailed in 4.0).
And who will be the hero healer - only Elrond? And what for Arwen? Or both?

P.S. I'll probably take personally removal of water horses while Elrond is levelling. 8-| :P


--- Zitat von: Julio229 am 30. Jan 2019, 14:29 ---About the Three Rings argument, I believe I can fall back to my previous argument about the concept's fittingness. There is no doubt it does fit the ideas behind it and reflect Vilya's nature, but I believe a better effect for it could be found for the sake of balance and uniqueness, since while the concept is fitting, in my opinion it doesn't quite fulfill the other two.

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Actually it is unique - there isn't anything in the game what causes invincible base. And concerning balance - last ability of the faction hero who will cost 3 000, can be used only for defense, and its duration will be around 30 - 45 seconds doesn't seem to me OP. On the other hand, current restoration (which can only refresh skillsets, but still) can be used either for offensive or defensive gameplay, because you can refresh in target location not only all of your heroes, but allied heroes as well (imagine Gandalf using all of his mass slayer abilities twice). :o

OakenShield224:

--- Zitat von: Tiberius Ogden am 30. Jan 2019, 22:52 ---Actually it is unique - there isn't anything in the game what causes invincible base. And concerning balance - last ability of the faction hero who will cost 3 000, can be used only for defense, and its duration will be around 30 - 45 seconds doesn't seem to me OP. On the other hand, current restoration (which can only refresh skillsets, but still) can be used either for offensive or defensive gameplay, because you can refresh in target location not only all of your heroes, but allied heroes as well (imagine Gandalf using all of his mass slayer abilities twice). :o

--- Ende Zitat ---

Firstly, you are correct in saying that there are no abilities in 4.4.1 that will lead to an invincible base. However, you have forgotten that 4.5 Angmar will be able to render their base invulnerable (something that I have mentioned in this thread). I know there have been discussions about the thematic differences of a ring of power compared to a snowstorm and fell winds, but the end result is the same.

Then with your arguments about Restoration being able to restore very strong hero abilities, well Imladris doesn’t really have any massive abilities that would have such a big effect on the game if restored (maybe a heal and a couple of fear abilities but that’s about it). Lothlorien would have a lot more destructive abilities (Legolas Arrow Wind, Haldir White Arrow, Celeborn being able to completely wipe out heroes with his abilities) and yet you are completely fine with Lothlorien having the restoration. As for allied heroes, the mod itself is balanced for 1v1 games. However, it should be easy enough to make it so that Restoration would only affect heroes of your faction if it is a balance issue.

With regards to the point about Imladris’ mass slayer hero, does it really need a “heavy” mass slayer like Gandalf, Saruman and Zaphragor (or even Legolas and Gimli)? The faction has the Blademasters which can deal AOE damage to deal with spam. The Wind and Sea lore masters both deal AOE damage and disrupt movement with their basic attacks. Combine the lore masters and you have some more crowd control abilities such as Light Spectrum or Searing Sunlight. The faction already has the best troops in the game. It’s for these reasons that quite a few people are fine with the faction having a “lighter” mass slayer in the form of Elrond especially as it allows his healer aspect to be represented in Restoration. The best heroes are those that are versatile and need more thought and skill to use properly. Focusing Elrond on being a mass slayer to the detriment of the rest of his character, and then giving him an invincibility power at the end just makes him less interesting to use. If you look at current examples of invincibility in the game, I’m not sure that anyone really likes Thorin being able to make a surrounding army invulnerable, and that ability only lasts for 10 seconds. The Elrond ability would be even stronger by affect units, heroes AND buildings plus you’re saying that it would last a lot longer. The Team removed Galadriel’s invincibility for a reason, it doesn’t really make sense to just give it to another hero. 

If you feel the need for Imladris to improve their mass slaying, then Glorfindel’s abilities could easily be slightly adjusted to make him a “lighter” mass slayer while also keeping some of his tank aspects. You also keep mentioning that Arwen is the “healer” of the faction. I don’t really see why this is the case considering she wasn’t able to heal Frodo, flat out said “we must get him to my father” and only he was able to cure Frodo from the effects of the Morgul Blade. If you look at the source material, even Glorfindel or the Twins would be a better representation of a healer considering that Glorfindel actually makes Frodo feel better for a small time and the Twins help Aragorn in helping the wounded in Minas Tirith. Make Arwen a unit and hero supporter all you want (she did support Aragorn after all) but I don’t see the need to make her a healer.

Tiberius Ogden:
And your proposal for Elrond skillset is? Or you are fine with him as he is now?

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