Elrond - Lord of Imladris

[Walküre]

Thank you for the kind words. I deem it a comprehensive ensemble as well

Your idea makes sense, but, just by glancing at it, I don't think the image can be cropped decently, so to show his armour and the horse correctly. In doubt, I would still stick to the current icon, taken from Hugo Weaving's (the actor playing Elrond) official photo shoot for the Hobbit; as you can see, he's clearly striking the right pose

As Tiberius is used to remarking, he's a sort of fashion icon

[Fellowship]

Yeah, actually it came to my mind that the picture couldn't be cut so that it depicts both aspects of the ability. Anyway, the current one is still amazing and I also like Hugo Weaving's pose in this image.

[Tiberius Ogden]

Two things:

1) When some people think that Elrond is great healer and it must be reflected in his skillset .. shouldn't we talk about some healing skill rather than hero refreshment that already have two hero supporters in the game?
Because it will lead us to Arwen who will have two healing-hero oriented skills (one normally and second via spell).
2) I don't know if -100% attack for Vilya sounds cool and magically like invincibility ... What's the difference between these two effects?

[Walküre]

1. I've asked the exact same thing to the 'healer side', and strongly advised against similar reasonings. Anyway, I've always been fine with Restoration, conceptually. It does fit Elrond, but it mines deep in another, slightly different aspect: Rivendell is a place of rest and solace, where heroes renew their worried minds and depleted strengths. As you can see, it's not really identical to sheer healing; I agree with you on this needed distinction. Apart from conceptual clarifications, it makes no difference to me. The ability will stay and no additional slot is going to be sacrificed.

2. It means that, no matter which spell, destructive heroic ability or weapon, your buildings, heroes and units within the radius will be preserved from any typology of damage, thus halving and neutralising most part of the negative effects caused by whatever hostile manoeuvre. In contrast with Nenya, Vilya's magic is to last longer, affect heroes, and soak up any possible feature's damage; the last task the Ring of Water cannot perform, since it simply heals the target, without interfering (directly or indirectly) with your opponent's spells or heroes, and thank you very much. The hierarchy among the Three is thereby respected.

Of course, I would have loved the Ring of Air to grant invincibility. However, some people were quite uneasy about it and balance-related points would go against a too great duration. In order to compensate for this effect switch, Vilya shall bless all allied bases, too (and everyone inside). I thought it would be better to involve allies equally, because, according to the aforementioned interpretation, the Ring also ensures that a minimum level of order is maintained in the world, in spite of wars or other troubles. This way, we have also reaffirmed Vilya's hegemony as the ruling Ring (of the Three).

Note that, in addition, the ability will truly be unique. It bears no resemblance to Dwarves' invulnerability or Angmar's snowstorm.
On top of all, our own precious 'Three Rings axiom' is still valid:

NARYA - Endurance
NENYA - Cure/Healing
VILYA - Protection



After having reached this compromise, I hope that Julio, Oak and Aulë will reconsider their stance. Blue Wizard was also interested, as long as we reintroduced healing or restoring traits pertaining to the character. Nevertheless, talks on Discord have been fruitful and very useful, to get people back to forum discussions. I hope you'll see reason

[Tiberius Ogden]

Why I now think that Elrond will be conceptually even more broken than is now?
Instant refreshment fits to Galadriel, she instanly refreshed Frodo and Gandalf in the movie, not Elrond, Elrond was well known healer and healed Frodo, but it took quite a time.
Horse - do we have any precedent from the game that horse skill is combined with passive ability? For me it's quite odd.
And concerning Vilya ... I don't know, invincibility sounded magically, -100% sounds like some debuff ... yes, Angmar fortress, but honestly I also don't know how snowstorm can make things invincible.
There must be something more powerful, magical, and balance-wiser, than this ... I am sure of it, we just don't have in front of our nose for now, we should keep discussing ...

[AmosVogel]

Hey there, friends of old!

I see that many of those who comment desire things that maybe be against lore, to them -and also to the fellow edain companions- i ask:

Who is Elrond witthout Vilya?

Because we have dear Tiberius & Walküre explaining what are the elven rings and more properly Vilya and its power.

If something may fit the ring bearers -save Frodo & ring heroes- is that the double palantir should be aplied. Because it is not only one single power that the ring gives  to them.

In the end i think we should first debate what can Elrond do without the mightiest of the three for he never shown he had it but did use it when it might.

[Walküre]

Why I now think that Elrond will be conceptually even more broken than is now?
Instant refreshment fits to Galadriel, she instanly refreshed Frodo and Gandalf in the movie, not Elrond, Elrond was well known healer and healed Frodo, but it took quite a time.
Horse - do we have any precedent from the game that horse skill is combined with passive ability? For me it's quite odd.
And concerning Vilya ... I don't know, invincibility sounded magically, -100% sounds like some debuff ... yes, Angmar fortress, but honestly I also don't know how snowstorm can make things invincible.
There must be something more powerful, magical, and balance-wiser, than this ... I am sure of it, we just don't have in front of our nose for now, we should keep discussing ...

Instant refreshment does fit Galadriel, I agree, and that's why she will fully refresh the target hero, including health. Ergo: a unique, complete kind of restoration. The one Elrond performs we could regard as a secondary hero-supporter trait of his, which doesn't interfere with Arwen's influence (she heals only). I think it's a reasonable addition to enrich his power set with, as the banishment is for Galadriel (a mass-slayer and hero-interferer trait). Plus, it has more to do with Rivendell's renowned fame as a resting place, rather than the Lord's own healing knowledge.

I don't think we have one, but it makes enormous sense: I consider the horse as an integral part of his 'ancient equipment', when he would lead Elven battalions to war, during his years at the service of Gil-galad (as his most trusted herald). Also, it's possible to merge the two abilities together, since one of them is passive (it would not be as nice, say, if we were to combine Gandalf's mount with one of his super-active abilities).

I fear there is no other (suitable) alternative to preservation from all kinds of damage, even though it's not sheer invincibility (that carries the mentioned complications). Searching to and fro, within the good side, I cannot find anything worth choosing: healing is already taken and resistance against nature-type damages belongs to Narya. Remember that we also need to make sure that Vilya's effect surpasses Nenya's in might; concerning its whole magical feeling, I'm working with Aulë on some ideas for a decently satisfying rendition.

I don't believe he would end up being broken, role-wise. As you've written in your previous comment, our intent has never been centred on roles. We just wanted to focus a little bit more on mass-slaying skills, while correcting Vilya (which is my foremost goal). The current compromise leaves things quite unaltered, given that he's still going to be a mass-slayer, with a hero-supporter aspect. If anything, he's now stronger and more useful in combat, but this has been balanced through his suggested 3000-resource price.

Hey there, friends of old!

I see that many of those who comment desire things that maybe be against lore, to them -and also to the fellow edain companions- i ask:

Who is Elrond witthout Vilya?

Because we have dear Tiberius & Walküre explaining what are the elven rings and more properly Vilya and its power.

If something may fit the ring bearers -save Frodo & ring heroes- is that the double palantir should be aplied. Because it is not only one single power that the ring gives  to them.

In the end i think we should first debate what can Elrond do without the mightiest of the three for he never shown he had it but did use it when it might.

He has never summoned mobile tornadoes, to be sure

Vilya's powers are quite tricky to debate, as they're overall very similar to what Nenya does. In the books, we have ample evidence of the wonders that both Rings have accomplished; on top of all, the fact of establishing two timeless sanctuaries in Middle-earth, immune to decay and evil. The fact is, though, we are never told about what really makes Vilya superior and higher in status, apart from Imladris mirroring the Lonely Island beyond the sundering seas. According to an interpretation I've once come across, the Ring of Air might be endowed with an additional global effect: maintaining a minimum level of order and peace in the world, though wars and hardship are not necessarily avoided. I'm striving and doing my utmost best to portray such themes in the most lore-accurate way possible

By the way, thank you for following forum discussions after so much time. I always remember you with fondness

[AmosVogel]

Now that you say it, "Vilya's powers are quite tricky to debate, as they're overall very similar to what Nenya does"

Could both of them have mirror effects?

For example:

Nenya's protection: Units near Gladys only recieve half the damage.
Vilya's protection: Units near the fortress only recieve half the damage.

Vilya's restoration: Units near Elrond are slowly cured, even in the heat of battle.
Nenya's restoration: Unit near the fortress are slowly cured, even in the heat of battle.

Or something like that, so  it makes clear that both of them serve for keeping away the worlds decay & restores injuries from battle.

Also glad to read you remember me that way ^^, I do feel the same for you, old friend.

[Walküre]

I think the current display already references this similarity between the two: both affect units and buildings, serving an exquisitely supportive purpose. The Three Rings in general, hopefully, will be characterised by beneficial effects. Mixing healing and protection together, however, would not differentiate the two strategically and conceptually. We must retain some degree of variation.

I hope you'll see the thorough, compelling reasons behind such lore foundations, at the core of our concept. That would mean a lot

[AmosVogel]

I see, but it wasn't meant to be "Mixing healing and protection together", that was an  exempli causa

Btw i still think that the power of the three shouldn't be only for the lvl 10 abilty, but have rather a new palantir or a step by step improvement.

[Walküre]

I rather meant to say that we should be careful about choosing too similar effects, for the sake of clarity. I'm worried that your proposal could create some confusion. Instead, we'll give Vilya its own spot, and we're going to follow our Three Rings guidelines in the meantime.

There's someone else who quotes Latin expressions! I thought I was the only one throughout the diverse halls of MU. Welcome to the club

In that case, rationis gratiā, I deduce from our lengthy essays that we ought to stick to the current iteration, for which we much strove and eventually found a nice compromise. That's why the Ring of Air should stay where it is now, because this is the logic that is widely and predominantly accepted in Edain: Rings of Power deserve their relative ultimate status

[AmosVogel]

So be it, my friend. Let the course of ring bearers stick to the current iteration 

Alea iacta est 

I support +1

[Walküre]

So be it, my friend. Let the course of ring bearers stick to the current iteration 

Alea iacta est 

I support +1

Thank you, from the depth of my heart, for partaking once again in an adventurous enterprise of ours. We long to see this bold concept in the game, and, given its intrinsic boldness, I shall say:

FORTUNA AUDACES IUVAT

[Tiberius Ogden]

Paradoxially I must unstick my dafur. Elrond now seems to me unfocused, OP even more than Gandalf and others, and Vilya's effect is not interesting ...
He isn't reworked to be more clear as we wanted.
This compromise just added one ultimate ability to already full skilset.

[Walküre]

I would be more than willing to change idea, if someone provided some illuminating solutions that could please everybody and be shared unanimously. I'm afraid that this is not possible, since most parties are stuck in their respective front. Personally, moreover, I don't find his design overpowered at all, as isn't Gandalf's in equal terms; they're just good at what they're supposed to do. 3000 resources must also mean something, I presume.

Quoting your previous comment, our intention was simply aimed at fixing the current, lore-inaccurate portraiture of Vilya, staying loyal to our Three Rings premise, while retaining three mass-slayer abilities/aspects (water-horses, splash-type attack and whirlwind). This hasn't changed, in fact. If anything, I think it was a general mistake, from all of us, to be that obsessed with roles, especially when discussing a fluid hero like Elrond: a major character of the canons, with a large variety of possible characterisations (support, leadership, mass-slaying and magic). The Edain Team's will is clearly oriented towards mass-slaying, and so my compromise goes likewise.

I'm not very much satisfied with restoration either, but we can't even state that the theme itself would not fit him. And, regarding Vilya, the whole proposal was born out of iteration upon iteration, ruling out several options that would always present issues. If you want, I would love to debate the supposed Ring's influence further, though I doubt it could be of help. Invincibility doesn't really vary so much from -100% received damage; they both reward targets with high resistance against any kind of violent harm. The only diverging element between the two is the actual degree of protection. Invincibility would be hugely fitting, and it was me who had first suggested it, but we have other replicas (more or less) of the feature in the game and the effect does break balance a bit (obliging us to reduce duration).

Other suggestions went in the wrong direction: wind/tornado-related powers, direct healing, resistance against nature-type damages (this is Narya's realm) or building reparation (the role of Círdan). If someone has a better concept to bring to public attention, I would be delighted to put forward other alternatives
In the meantime, I would say we're quite alternative-less...

P.S. Remember that every proposed concept is not written in the stone. Some may give consent to a general scope or principle (in our case, finalising a very old overhaul), and not in regards to specific values or choices (always subject to change). I want to believe that the sole fact of having re-opened this thread will give developers enough motivation to finish his design. Very rarely have dense topics been copied and pasted in the game as they had initially been submitted to the community. I hope all our efforts won't be in vain