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Should Iron Hills or Ered Luin get new and unique Outpost!?

Iron Hills should get the new Assembly Halls!
35 (58.3%)
Ered Luin should get the new Assembly Halls!
8 (13.3%)
No they should remain as they are with Lake-Town!
17 (28.3%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 54

Autor Thema: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills  (Gelesen 109835 mal)

CragLord

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #135 am: 5. Sep 2015, 21:04 »
Nice comment Dain! Agree with you!
Main problem as could see on that german discussion is lack of real arguments against this suggestion... I meant real lore facts against this, not only simple thoughts about this!? From my prospective situation is clear about this suggestion when we take a look on german discussion about this...


I have read this also on german discussion...
Ok, I understand if Ea don't like concept of this hero, maybe there could be made some changes, but that part about no meaning to the mod, if I have understood correctly, I could say next:

1. Isn't better to have new Outpost hero for Iron Hills in place of Bard? What are lore reasons on which you based idea of Lake Town like Outpost for Iron Hills and in this term Bard like Outpost hero for Iron Hills. I have tried many times to find some reasonable link between them, no success. I can understand personal preferences, but current situation with Lake Town is not appropriate.
2. Bard is range hero, this is also kind of unbalance in this mod, Iron Hills already have 1 range main hero (Drar) ! Look at other dwarven faction. Erebor also has 1 (Brand), and Ered Luin  has 1 (Bard) (Killi is more like some kind of support, from objective perspective he is part of spell)
3. It is really disappointing fact that members of this eng part need to go to german section and use translator in order to get opinion from main leader of this team about this matter! Many thanks to Fredius!

Also about this Outpost building in general:

There is a lot of lore facts for this. We have written 9 pages of this concept btw, and we have express all lore fact on which we based this idea. And at the end we got opinion that this would not bring something new to the mod... Guys, be objective please, what is Erebor Outpost then Lake Town's one with different skin and same units... Same idea you have here in general, so please find better argument (plus those ideas have been used strictly from movie, we have tried to suggest something out of movie and mainly from lore! This is building which has existed in Tolkien world, it was important to the dwarves, we used that idea. There was reasons that this is copy of Lake Town/Dale. In term of balance as I have understood this game, shouldn't dwarven faction be equal when we speak about function of Outposts? As I have said earlier, this should polish Iron Hills more in lore way, Lake Town is really not appropriate from lore prespective)
And just to add this Outpost would have some dwarven based buildings and units, isn't that refreshment in this mod? Integration of other dwarven realms into this mod, isn't that good? I know this is lot of work, I don't deny that, but we are talking about this suggestion for far future obviously...

From all anti-suggestion comments from german topic, there is one in which member wrote that is is just "other" idea for integration of movie models. That is not true, we have suggested them, but also have suggested other models from other games (Wotn, and old veterans models, also a some of Weta designs). So please try to be objective and read idea in general, what I could conclude from that comment is that guy has seen only what he don't like and generalize that on whole idea.

Also there is comment that this mod don't need another two dwarven "völker" (people if I have understood correctly).
Why? Hmm, maybe because diversity, and representation of lore and in order to create something more interesting then Lake Town/Dale soldiers, and which correspond to dwarves also.   

Also in same comment from Gimilzar, there is reason that gray mountains are abandoned because of lack of ore and danger of cold drakes.

Yes they did, but you can't use now any time fact against this, simply Dwarves lived there, and they foughts cold drakes there, not so long ago before they have established Erebor, so anti time fact here is not something big reason to deny this... What sould we say about time gap which exist between some heroes or entire factions (Angmar/Arnor) if you want to be so precise?
Also there is indications that some of population have stay there and continue mining and fighting with cold drakes, so in that term, those dwarves must be fierce warriors indeed. There is also enough reasons to add them.
Main reason of adding those 3 units battalions (not populations or people or entire "völker") is to represent some diversity, best way is to use those lore facts and bring some units from population which existed... 
Also about lack of ore, I haven't found that in tolkiengateway/lotr wiki.

Iron Hills have same number of heroes like other dwarven faction, that complain about number of Iron Hills heroes is ridiculous. This is mainly idea of replacing Bard with some other more lore accurate hero...

About Orocarni dwarves, it is matter of personal opinion about what you think about them. One fact we know from lore is that they were fierce warriors and have gold lust before they got ring of power. But there is non single information of indication that they have ever served Sauron in any possible way!
Also they have fulfilled their oath when we got to the Battle of Azanulbizar! So that is indication that they collaborate with other houses, and Iron Hills were closest dwarven kingdom. Personally I find those dwarves really important, when we speak in general terms. It is natural to presume that those two Orocarni houses were mighty (they were isolated, had enough time without war, enough time to develop their kingdoms etc ), but this is also personal opinion mainly.

At the end, most of eng members don't speak english as native language, but we communicate here without problems. And I presume that lot of members from german part know how to express themselves on this part of forum, so I invite them to join here. It is "ridiculous" to communicate over Fredius (beside his good will to do this translations...) about this suggestion, simply this is original topic about this.


« Letzte Änderung: 30. Sep 2015, 19:36 von CragLord »

Fredius

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #136 am: 5. Sep 2015, 21:38 »
Wow CraigLord and Dain those are great arguments thank you very much! Needless to say I agree with all of them. As you and LordDainIronfoot pointed out, we don't necesseraly want to use the Hobbit concepts, they're just ideas, so I'll just remove those from the main page so that they can't "accuse" us anymore. On the pages in this thread I found all kinds of concept art for the Orocarni and Ered Mithrin units, which are not from the Hobbit movies or it's concepts. Should I just post every one of them or only a select few?

Anyway, I'll try to make a summary of all these arguments, and put them in the first post of the poll inside the German forums. I'll do the translating tomorrow or monday, because making these translations is pretty time-consuming and I have also other stuff to do. Also I'll give it a little bit more time to see if there are other members willing to give more suggestions. Feel free to post anymore here! And as you said Craig let's hope that the German forum members post some of their ideas here too, because I'm pretty sure that a lot of them have mastered the English language ;).

Aragorn II.

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #137 am: 5. Sep 2015, 21:52 »
First of all, I am from the german forum, so sorry for my english. :D
Personally I am against the concept, because i like Laketown and I think, it fits better to the dwarfs then this Assembly Hall. I can understand that you want to have the other dwarf nations in the mod, but I think that Laketown fits very well to the Ironhills. The Ironhills in the edain mod are concepted to the time of the Hobbit and we know exactly that at that time these fractions fight together against the Orks in the battle of the five armies. Because of this lore facts, Laketown is the Outpost from the ironhills and Ered Luin (also based on the book, because the Ered Luin are at the time of the Hobbit and fight together with the people of Laketown).



LordDainIronfoot

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #138 am: 5. Sep 2015, 22:02 »
First of all thank you for your opinion here!
And with all my respect the only connection between Iron Hilsl and Lake Town(which did't even had proper Army) is BoFA and thats all for the whole Third Age Period!? Lake Town is more arpropriate for Ered Luin there I agree but not Iron Hills,there are no evidence od Dain having connections with them and it is more apropriate to conclude he has relations with other Dwarven Houses and Collonies and Realms and although it is still kinda speculation it will bring more divrsity in game and allow the including of other Dwarven Realms of which at one time were 7!!
Plus Orocarni and Ered Mithrin existed trough the whole Third Age or at least nothing proves other way so there is no time probelm here at least to me!
And let's not start with the fact that Ered Luin wa NO actualy and millitary strong Kingdom!! :) In Ered Mithrin there are indications that small parties of Dwarves left and slowly cleared the Mountain from Drakes which makes the strong and 1-2 Battalions of them I find good! :)
And what is bad in having different Dwarven Houses/Clans which are uhniqe and different, I find it similar to Mordor having 10 kinds of Orcs from all over MIddle Earth!?
And 2 ideantical Outposts are not so uniqe and interesting when tere is unexplored and developed things like other Dwarves which will make more interesting and diverse!?
I find it better to have another Lore Hero than 2 identical Bards!? :)
So I am sorry to dissagree but I do not think Iron Hills has enough strong connections with Lake Town! :)
« Letzte Änderung: 5. Sep 2015, 22:13 von LordDainIronfoot »
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

CragLord

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #139 am: 5. Sep 2015, 22:14 »
Welcome Aragorn II. ! :)

I understand personal preferences. But in this case, Lake Town don't have lore connections with Iron Hills. You have specified link from BOFA, I will tell you next, those dwarves wanted to crush people of Lake Town when they decide to stood between them and Erebor (from book). So it was natural they fought together against goblins and wargs when they wanted to kill them all. :) In other words, this isn't fact which could be used for integration of Lake Town as Outpost for Iron Hills. Also there is no lore reason for this.
Other words, I understand that you like this Outpost, but it already exist in Ered Luin faction. :) You should also think about this.
What is more interesting 2 Different Kingdoms with 100% identical outposts and Units and Hero which do not have real connection or having a completely different units and hero with more lore connection?

Greetings.
« Letzte Änderung: 5. Sep 2015, 22:33 von CragLord »

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #140 am: 5. Sep 2015, 22:53 »
i agree with dain and cragLord on this one and also its not unique erebor has dale ered luin has lake town and iron heels got lake town too this is not right

Aragorn II.

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #141 am: 5. Sep 2015, 22:55 »

[/quote]
And with all my respect the only connection between Iron Hilsl and Lake Town(which did't even had proper Army) is BoFA and thats all for the whole Third Age Period!?
No, but for the time, where the edain team had concepted the Ironhills


I find it better to have another Lore Hero than 2 identical Bards!? :)
So I am sorry to dissagree but I do not think Iron Hills has enough strong connections with Lake Town! :)

There is no Lore Hero for the Ered Mithrin in the time of the Hobbit :D
I think the connections between them are strong :D

But in this case, Lake Town don't have lore connections with Iron Hills. You have specified link from BOFA, I will tell you next, those dwarves wanted to crush people of Lake Town when they decide to stood between them and Erebor (from book). So it was natural they fought together against goblins and wargs when they wanted to kill them all. :) In other words, this isn't fact which could be used for integration of Lake Town as Outpost for Iron Hills. Also there is no lore reason for this.

Why is there no Lore reasons? :D They fight together in this battle.

What is more interesting 2 Different Kingdoms with 100% identical outposts and Units and Hero which do not have real connection or having a completely different units and hero with more lore connection?

Personally I think Laketown is more interesting. There is not an other fraction with more Lore connection, and which Hero do you mean? :D

Maybe you could use the units from Ered Mithrin in the travel stock (what is the name of the "Reiselager" in english?) :D
« Letzte Änderung: 5. Sep 2015, 23:05 von Aragorn II. »

Fredius

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #142 am: 5. Sep 2015, 22:58 »
No, but for the time, where the edain team had concepted the Ironhills

Especially at that time there was no connection between Lake-town and Iron Hills, because as stated above they almost fought each other. If the Iron Hills were designed with the War of the Ring in mind, then it would make more sense to include them into Iron Hills, because I'm pretty sure they would have an alliance after the Battle of the Five Armies.

However, as the team designed the Iron Hills to be part of the Hobbit storyline, it would only make more sense to not give them Lake-town.

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #143 am: 5. Sep 2015, 22:59 »
Edain Iron Hills is from the Hobbit and the Hobbit is not about only 1 moth or 1 battle s oI still do not see big enough Connection and plus Iron Hilsl existed much longer before and after the Hobbit events!
So I still dissagree :)

No, but for the time, where the edain team had concepted the Ironhills
Especially at that time there was no connection between Lake-town and Iron Hills, because as stated above they almost fought each other. If the Iron Hills were designed with the War of the Ring in mind, then it would make more sense to include them into Iron Hills, because I'm pretty sure they would have an alliance after the Battle of the Five Armies.

However, as the team designed the Iron Hills to be part of the Hobbit storyline, it would only make more sense to not give them Lake-town.
[/spoiler]
Thank you my friend ,but if it as even at the Time off LOTR it should have been Dale and not Lake Town! :)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Aragorn II.

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #144 am: 5. Sep 2015, 23:28 »
No, but for the time, where the edain team had concepted the Ironhills

Especially at that time there was no connection between Lake-town and Iron Hills, because as stated above they almost fought each other.

At the end they fight together. I don´t think that another fraction, with a Lore Hero and Units, fits better to the Iron Hills than Laketown but it seems, that we have a different opinion :D

Edain Iron Hills is from the Hobbit and the Hobbit is not about only 1 moth or 1 battle s oI still do not see big enough Connection and plus Iron Hilsl existed much longer before and after the Hobbit events!
So I still dissagree :)


Which other fraction, that have a lore Hero and Units, have more connections? :D

I think in this discussion we have different opinions :D

CragLord

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #145 am: 5. Sep 2015, 23:30 »
Again we go on timeline gap, I tried to explain this so many times, and this continues...
Connections between Lake Town and Iron Hills don't exist! We try to explain many times!
I have tried to give my best here and to explain most of things in detail.
When I read something like this, I think 2 things, first is that I hope you are kidding with me, which is fine but it is not time for jokes about this right now. And second thought is that you are doing this with purpose, further I won't write...

What could I say??? Is this problem with me, or with your understanding of this discussion?
Simply we try to be objective with some lore facts, and we expect that from other in discussion. Other way, I find all of this like great waste of time and our life energy...
« Letzte Änderung: 30. Sep 2015, 19:34 von CragLord »

Gimilzar

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #146 am: 5. Sep 2015, 23:33 »
Zitat
Connections between Lake Town and Iron Hills don't exist!

I dont know what book version of The Hobbit you read, but I am pretty sure that during the Battle of the Five Armies the Men of Laketown and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills took part. So much for nonexistent connections.

Zwergischer Soundboard Editor

CragLord

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #147 am: 5. Sep 2015, 23:39 »
And again same thing...
Is this reason to integrate economic/miliatry/hero/support building for Iron Hills?
And btw,  I have read book many times and almost all others from Tolkien...
And if you have also read, tell me what was before goblins came?
And have you read comments from above?
Simply this is minnor reason, and you all know this! From lore aspect 0 contidions! And you also know this, or I presume you know, but matter of preferences is other problem. That is clear!
« Letzte Änderung: 30. Sep 2015, 19:33 von CragLord »

Gnomi

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #148 am: 5. Sep 2015, 23:43 »
Zitat
It is really disappointing fact that members of this eng part need to go to german section and use translator in order to get opinion from main leader of this team about this matter!

Just a small thing from the me as team member:
If we need to read all english and all german parts of the forums (and all new moddb things) and answer everything we'ld have to spend least one hour per day just for reading.
Let's say we have every day about 1,5 hours for modding.
This would mean that we can only mod for about 30 minutes per day.
So we can't read everything. Especially not when we are doing other things, like goint outise, planning holidays and so on.

Additionally some german users have the same concern: They say that the team answers more questions for the english community and is also more active in the english areas.

So basically what I want to say:
You always just see what's bad for you. And the more active we're in the forums, the less time we have for modding.

Zitat
So please try to be objective and read idea in general, what I could conclude from that comment is that guy has seen only what he don't like and generalize that on whole idea.
The thing is:
You can say exactly the thing about yourself. You also have your standpoint, the same way others have theirs. Just because they don't like your standpoint doesn't mean that they are less objective than you're.
Additionally your point is not a valid reason against this opinion.^^ For me the whole concept looks like: "Adding many more models, just to have more different troups ingame, just for the sake of more troups".(note: I don't mean the movie dwarves, I just mean more different designs) Some of them are from the movie, but still the point stands: I personally see no reason in gameplay. And I'm one of those guys who love a game more when there are less troups, but therefore every single trouple has a purpose and a reason to recruit. I know guys who like it more when there are more different units, even when have of them are just copies of other troups, but I prefer other things.

Zitat
And just to add this Outpost would have some dwarven based buildings and units, isn't that refreshment in this mod? Integration of other dwarven realms into this mod, isn't that good?
Well, as I said:
I personally don't like adding units "just for more different troups". I had no problems with the amount of troups in Bfme I where every faction had just one type of units for each role. For me the most important thing is the usability in the game and that there is a reason to buy this unit and not another unit.

Zitat
invite them to join here
We have many people who're still in school. Many of them can understand english, but discussing an entire topic is something completely different. You're always much more comfortable with your native tongue, as you have more possibilities to write something and you canw rite and read much faster. Additionally it's always more tiring to discuss in english than in german for us, especially when you're not used to communicate so much in english. It's easy to write 1-2 sentences, but writing a whole topic if you're not used to it isn't so easy. :P
Of course that counts for everyone, also many people from the english community, but I can fully understand when people want to discuss topic in their native tongue., when they have the opportunity for it.
Additionally noone forced anyone to discuss the same idea in both areas. Of course we are always happy and think that it's good when the two communities get closer to each other, but we can't and won't force the english community to speak english and we won't force the english community to speak german.

Zitat
Also there is no lore reason for this.
The same counts for the other way round. There is no lore reason for the other idea.
Of course it's nice to have something different, but I'm personally happy with the current integration.(note: personally, I don't speak for the whole team here, as I haven't asked every single one of them what they prefer^^)
I can understand that other people prefer different things and therefore I wasn't writing something, because I currently have only less than one hour per day for modding and I don't want to spend 90% of it discussing things and afterwards having no time left to do anything productive for the mod.

So:
Don't blame the team for answering some questions in the german forums, as we're doing the same here in the english parts. And also don't blame the german community for staying more in the german parts. If you'ld be in a forum with your native tongue for 2 or more years you also wouldn't just switch and do everything in english. And there are already some german users who are also discussing with you here in the english parts. Additionally people only write something to topics which they are interested in - and I have the feeling that the english concepts have a different style than the german ones. So it also can be that most german users just don't mind as much about the ideas which are discussed here, as they are more interested in other concepts. (and when you're not interested in a topic you're even less motivated to write in another tongue.^^)

Fredius

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Re: New and Different Outpost Building for Ered Luin/Iron Hills
« Antwort #149 am: 5. Sep 2015, 23:45 »
I dont know what book version of The Hobbit you read, but I am pretty sure that during the Battle of the Five Armies the Men of Laketown and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills took part. So much for nonexistent connections.

Yes that was after they decided to almost go at each others throats, whereas Ered Luin had no quarrel with Lake-town at all, that's why I think that Lake-town belongs to Ered Luin, simply because they never fought each other xD.

Look, the Edain Team wants to make every Dwarf realm unique right? Why should two Dwarven Realms share the same outpost? If we are talking about connections then I'm pretty sure the Iron Hills would have had more connections with their brethern in the Grey Mountains/Red Mountains than the Men from Lake-town?

EDIT: Sorry Gnomi I haven't read your reply before posting this, but I'll make a new post to reply on your reply.