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Should the Rohirrim of the Eastfold not deal crush damage or receive crush revenge, and deal 40% extra damage to pikes? Additionally, without forged blades they deal extra damage to units without heavy armor, and vice versa to units with heavy armor

Yes
11 (55%)
No
8 (40%)
You like certain parts of this idea but not others, write what you don't like below if you pick this.
1 (5%)

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Autor Thema: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit  (Gelesen 1627 mal)

Elite KryPtik

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Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« am: 23. Jul 2015, 16:43 »
Right now, all I ever see from Rohan is huge spams of peasants, I haven't seen any cavalry in any games against actual Rohan players when playing online, except for the Captains of Rohan from the Assembly Point. Another thing that I haven't seen used ever, and I truly mean NEVER, are their secondary cavalry, the Rohirrim of the Eastfold, which I've tested out and I believe to be less effective than normal Rohirrim.  Here is another idea from me to counter pikes: Make it so that Rohirrim of the Eastfold do no trample enemies, therefore not dealing crush damage or receiving crush revenge damage from pikes. Additionally, make their blades deal extra damage to units without heavy armor when they don't have forged blades, and deal extra damage to units with heavy armor when they do have forged blades, and finally they should deal an additional 40% damage to pikes overall than other Rohan cavalry.

This would take what truly is a useless unit, even more so than peasants in late game, that nobody ever uses, and make them an effective pike counter. It would do it without making them OP because they can't crush units and aren't as good as normal Rohirrim against swordsmen/archers, while also not straying away from the factions lore.
« Letzte Änderung: 23. Jul 2015, 16:47 von Elite KryPtik »
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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #1 am: 23. Jul 2015, 16:48 »
I like your idea. Always a pity when some units are not used.


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Lord of Mordor

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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #2 am: 23. Jul 2015, 16:52 »
I'm not quite sure what you mean, their formation already does exactly what you describe - they can't trample units, but get +30% damage and armor. Does it maybe have a wrong english description?

Pikes still beat the Eastfold Rohirrim though, but need a lot more time because you don't trample them. But keep in mind that if Eastfold Rohirrim actually defeated pikemen, they would have no counter at all themselves. Cavalry generally beats swords and archers, and with their bonus to armor and damage the Eastfold Rohirrim are better in melee than normal Rohirrim as well.
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ziqing

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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #3 am: 23. Jul 2015, 16:59 »
I still think the main problem of Rohan is cavalry still take so many command points that we cann't recruit an army composed of cavalry entirely without being outnumbered. I personally use all mounted units if I decide to use cavalry in a game.

Rohan farmers in late game bring back the feeling of Goblin spams

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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #4 am: 23. Jul 2015, 17:11 »
I agree ziging, and I've previously suggested a couple of times to lower the CP cost of cavalry down to 60 for Rohan, because late game the enemy simply outnumbers you ridiculously. This can be countered to a certain extent with Glorious Charge, but it still isn't really very fair IMO. If Rohan is supposed to be focused so much on cavalry, with cavalry being their main unit, why do we not get to command more of them? Being able to command as many cavalry as your enemies have pikes would in and of itself be an excellent counter to pikes. Although I wish you would stick to the idea posted here for this thread, and not make a no vote based off of a different idea.

For future posters please vote on this idea based on whether or not you like it, do not let other ideas you have for the faction influence your vote.
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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #5 am: 23. Jul 2015, 18:21 »
Cavalry should not have or be an "excellent counter to pikes" though. That's the whole point, you should not be able to rely exclusively on one unit type. How would you defeat a cavalry army that's as large as any infantry army you can build and can beat your pikemen?

Cavalry has basically every advantage over pikemen. They're faster, so they can always choose their battles. They're stronger against both swordsmen and archers, and they are better for harassment. By contrast, pikemen are weak against everything except cavalry - once you have cavalry that counters pikemen, pikemen become useless and cavalry invincible.
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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #6 am: 23. Jul 2015, 18:32 »
Gotta admit you have a point Lord of Mordor...
How about changing Riders of the Eastfold into a cheaper but weaker version of the standard Rohirrims? It might be dumb though, it's just an idea. But perhaps it could make the transition from peasants to cavalry more reliable and less dangerous ; even though it does not change Rohan late game.


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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #7 am: 23. Jul 2015, 22:43 »
Cavalry should not have or be an "excellent counter to pikes" though. That's the whole point, you should not be able to rely exclusively on one unit type. How would you defeat a cavalry army that's as large as any infantry army you can build and can beat your pikemen?

Cavalry has basically every advantage over pikemen. They're faster, so they can always choose their battles. They're stronger against both swordsmen and archers, and they are better for harassment. By contrast, pikemen are weak against everything except cavalry - once you have cavalry that counters pikemen, pikemen become useless and cavalry invincible.

Well that's the idea of the tradeoff, they cannot trample. So they wouldn't be able to deal with archers who could pick them off easily. Infantry would also be able to defeat them in melee, because they cannot trample units, so their only usefulness would be as a counter to an army of pikes. Making just Rohirrim of the Eastfold would result in infantry and archer armies demolishing you. It would be good for situations like for example, if you start off with infantry, then transition to cavalry, catching your opponent off guard. Then once he makes a bunch of pikes to deal with your cavalry, you could make the Rohirrim of the Eastfold to counter the pikes. I would agree that this idea would be unfair if the Rohirrim of the Eastfold could trample, but without trample damage I think its a fair tradeoff.

As for cavalry having every advantage over pikes, I heartily disagree, it really comes down to how each is used. If you put pikes in porcupine formation on top of your archers, then boom, suddenly enemy cavalry becomes completely useless. Archers are good against infantry too, and Rohans infantry suck really bad, so the pikes would be able to delay Rohan infantry long enough for the archers to shred them. It all depends on how you play and how effectively you place your pikes. All I know is that something needs to be done, or else Rohan will just be a spam faction like Mordor and Goblins, and not the epic cavalry faction that I think the team intended and envisioned. Right now its pointless to even try to make any cavalry besides the captains of Rohan against other players, because anybody half skilled at the game can just mindlessly spam pikes and you lose.
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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #8 am: 24. Jul 2015, 01:41 »
When I tested the Eastfold Riders (with formation) against pikes, swordsmen and a mixture of them they did very well against the swordsmen, lost against the pikes but not too horribly (more like pikes lose to swordsmen) and got crushed by the mixture.
I think that the reason for this is that while they doesnt lose too badly against the pikes they lose very fast (but taking enough pikes with them to make it "fair") so if they fight against the mixture and focus on killing the swordsmen they get killed faster by the pikes than they can kill the swordsmen.

My reasoning therefore goes as follows: They should get less damage from pikes in melee combat but also deal less damage against pikes so that they can function as a counter to hordes of swordsmen while the peasants have to deal with the pikes.
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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #9 am: 24. Jul 2015, 04:34 »
Regular Rohirrim can defeat swordsmen really easily, so can the current meta of extreme peasant spam, that's not the issue. The issue is that using Cavalry as Rohan is actually pointless in the current build, because pikes can defeat them so easily. The whole idea of Rohan, like everybody says, is to be a cavalry faction, yet building cavalry as Rohan will almost always lose you the game, theres something seriously wrong with that.
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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #10 am: 24. Jul 2015, 14:19 »
Zitat
The issue is that using Cavalry as Rohan is actually pointless in the current build, because pikes can defeat them so easily. The whole idea of Rohan, like everybody says, is to be a cavalry faction, yet building cavalry as Rohan will almost always lose you the game, theres something seriously wrong with that.
Pikes are the normal counter of Cavalry. Cavalry is the normal counter of Swordsman and Archers. At the moment the strenght is perfect.

I think the problem isn't the Cavalry. The problem are the Farmers. They are TO strong for their spam. And because every Unitmakebuilding(?) is a ressourcesbuilding, Rohan has enaugh Ressources to make a no-Cavalryarmy. For example when the Ressources from the farms are half(?) so People will buy more Cavalry.

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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #11 am: 24. Jul 2015, 16:36 »
I agree with you, but if the spam is weakened than Rohan will become completely useless. Cavalry right now cannot accomplish anything late game, because of pikes, and this is why everybody who is good and plays with Rohan just spams Peasants. That is the argument I'm making here, since Rohan is supposed to be a cavalry faction, wouldn't it be cool to have a cavalry unit that is specifically trained to counter pikemen?

Realistically, since they are stated to have almost always fought on horseback, they would have to have some kind of specially trained light riders who could deal with front lines of pikemen in order to have the bulk of their army accomplish anything. These anti-pike cavalry would lose to both archers and swordsmen like I just said, because they wouldn't have as much health or armor as normal Rohirrim, but their damage and armor against pikes specifically would be increased, to allow them to counter pikes. So all this would do would make your opponent need to use some strategy to counter you, because he would have to protect his pikes with swordsmen and archers, he couldn't just literally spam pikes and win against your cavalry army.
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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #12 am: 24. Jul 2015, 17:51 »
I think Krptik has a good idea, it's at least worth a try as basically he is asking to turn the Westfold riders into essentially only anti-pike unites, while lowering power against melee and ranged. Would it be possible to give them a timed ability that would give this function in order to make them a bit more strategic? Or like a spear throw ability that lowers pike crush revenge or something? I feel like they could be more specialized than they currently are, and I think Kryptik's idea is a good start.

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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #13 am: 25. Jul 2015, 07:36 »
I voted yes. But I have an idea on to not make this op. Make the rohirrim of the eastfold countered by other cavalry, this way they are not un-counter-able. :P
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Re: Make Rohirrim of the Eastfold a Useful Unit
« Antwort #14 am: 25. Jul 2015, 10:24 »
Zitat
I voted yes. But I have an idea on to not make this op. Make the rohirrim of the eastfold countered by other cavalry, this way they are not un-counter-able. :P
How should Mordor counter it?
How should the Goblins counter it?