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Umfrage

Would you like to see Ram Riders for Iron Hills in the mod?

Yes, as a buildable unit from either the Forge Works or the Dwarven Barracks.
22 (40%)
Yes, as a Hero-summon by either Murin or Dain.
17 (30.9%)
Yes, but somewhere else in the faction than option 1 or option 2.
6 (10.9%)
No, they are unnecessary.
10 (18.2%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 53

Umfrage geschlossen: 22. Okt 2015, 23:52

Autor Thema: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?  (Gelesen 24333 mal)

NetoD20

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #15 am: 17. Okt 2015, 05:25 »
So, in order to pull the thread back into more friendlier ground, I think you all voting here should see this:


I'm sorry if posting these videos here is not appropriete, but I figured they indeed have a lot to do with this thread.

Fredius

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #16 am: 17. Okt 2015, 16:30 »
I watched them all and it got me like  :o :o :o! So fricking awesome!

And I'm in favor of rams becoming a unit ;).

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #17 am: 17. Okt 2015, 17:56 »
Hello to all !I will make only one post here since I am staying aside from the Forums!
 
People always say Rams are not Canon!Ok I agree BUT Battlewagon is non canon too and are a type of Cavalry Unit!Next are Mirkwood Elks Riders Rangers they are not Canon and not mentioned in the Books but people seem to not have a problem with them(I myself too do not have one) so my point is why should Rams be a problem especially if limited to 3 Battalions for exaample either recruited or Permanently Summoned by Dain LV 10 which I like the most but you shouldn't be able to get more than 3 at the same time!

So it will make Iron Hills unique to other Dwarves and will add more to their Speed Dased Faction but they will be limited and weaker than Gondor Knights and slower than ordinary Cavalry! :-)

Thats from me,I will post nothing more!And I hope people wiil respect each other opinions and let the Team decide! :-)
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korner

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #18 am: 17. Okt 2015, 19:23 »
This has been discussed several times now, and all the pros and cons are still the same...

I am against implementation of ram riders, no matter which way (summon, recruitable or whatever).
Why?

Dwarves are an infantery faction. They don´t have cavalry and I like that.
I actually play dwarves most of the time and always wish I had cavalry - but wouldn´t it be too easy and too standard? Best infantry + best heroes + cavalry would be too much, no more challenge any longer.
Rams = not canon. correct
Battle Waggons = not canon. correct. BUT they are in the game since the original EA-Games release and people are simply used to them. AND: they are unique.

Rohan is best example in comparison:
They rely mostly (or should mostly rely on) cavalry. They only have very weak infantry. All sorts of people want stronger infantry for Rohan, but that would destroy the character of the faction and the Edain team always rejected requests for stronger infantry.

Summa summarum:
I won´t die if rams would be implemented, but I like the lack of cavalry among the dwarves. I wouldn´t like that be changed.

Fredius

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #19 am: 17. Okt 2015, 19:39 »
Having studied history myself I can tell you that EVERY faction needs a cavalry unit. The reason for that is very simple; to counter artillery and archers. Armies who completely rely on infantry would be annihilated by armies who have superior archers. The best way to counter archers is too send in cavalry who can deal with them quickly, without losing to much infantry. Especially for slow Dwarves who would likely be killed by archers before they even could reach the enemy. People who are against Rams; please keep that in mind!

Now I understand that this is just a game and the archery system is not super realistic in BFME, but if you want to make this mod more realistic then it's only smart to give EVEN the Dwarves a cavalry unit.

CragLord

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #20 am: 17. Okt 2015, 19:43 »
And I could say that is your opinion and I respect it!
See korner, just do comparison (in content term) of your first comment in this topic (where you started with OMG,REALLY etc, it was pretty insulting to people who support this idea!) and this comment, and I hope you will get why I started to discuss with you at first place. I never had bad intention on this forum in any meaning of that word!
Regards

Skeeverboy

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #21 am: 17. Okt 2015, 19:49 »
For this the Dwarvens have at the moment Battle Wagons. They can kill bows and artillery very fast and easy.

I find that the Dwarvens don't need a other cavallery unit, because I think that the Battle Wagon sufficient.

CragLord

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #22 am: 17. Okt 2015, 19:59 »
That is true, but wagons are so damn weak in offensive, and you could use them only for supportive roles. That is also one of reasons why I think rams are needed as standard cavalry knock back offensive units...

NetoD20

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #23 am: 17. Okt 2015, 20:05 »

@korner we understand those points very well, but there are two groups of people, I think, those who value the fun and uniquiness of a given theme above mechanics and those who value the fun of balance and playability more.
I for one belong to the former, and while I understand the balance/playability argument, I think this exception wouldn't hurt overall b/p that much as you think it would. Both are valid opinions, I should think.
Particularly, in any game, like tabletop RPGs too, I value options and theme above balance. Balance is important, and it's part of the fun too, but it shouldn't be too rigid or always win cases against other elements of a game. It should be flexible in order accomodate new, fun and interesting concepts, like the ram riders, not hinder them. Even if those concepts hurt balance a little, well in that case (which is our case with the RRs) the concepts then should be limited not to harm balance too much, but should not be entirely excluded. That I think most RRs supporters understand that this unit should be limited in order to compromise with the balance and mechanics of the factions (IMO: elite units limited to three and difficult to get, and only in late game).


Yes, I think wagons, while fun, are too weak, and should be delegated to their more supportive role, so the RRs can step in as a decent but limited cavalry.
« Letzte Änderung: 17. Okt 2015, 20:15 von DieWalküre »

Fredius

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #24 am: 17. Okt 2015, 20:11 »

Like Craig and Neto said, they are very weak. On top of that the Wagons are damn expensive, not to mention the costs for the upgrades; and all that for a single wagon who gets destroyed by some small attacks. That's why imo you can't label them as a cavalry unit, but like people said a supportive unit.

Skeeverboy

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #25 am: 17. Okt 2015, 20:18 »
Than is the main problem not that the dwarvens have no cavallery. The Problem is, that the Battle Wagons are to weak.

What is to weak by the Wagons?
-Is the Damage to weak?
-Is the Speed to low?
-Is the Healt to low?
-Is the cost to high?

NetoD20

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #26 am: 17. Okt 2015, 20:22 »

They are weak for the fact that they are a single-unit battalion, one that can be easily destroyed, while a regular cavalry battalion can manage to be saved even with one returning rider down on his health. That can only be solved by a multiple-rider battalion, like the Ram Riders.

CragLord

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #27 am: 17. Okt 2015, 20:24 »
Everything is weak Skeeverboy...
And about rams:
Interesting argument that ram riders are non canon ... although Lord of the rings online has rights only to books ... and interesting argument that Ram rider is "Pj's product" ... when Moria expansion pack comes from 2007 ...


Fredius

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #28 am: 17. Okt 2015, 20:29 »
Than is the main problem not that the dwarvens have no cavallery. The Problem is, that the Battle Wagons are to weak.

What is to weak by the Wagons?
-Is the Damage to weak?
-Is the Speed to low?
-Is the Healt to low?
-Is the cost to high?

No, that is not the problem of the Wagon at all. As said the main role of the battle wagon is that it has a support role, meaning they make other units stronger in battle. You can't just make a support unit very strong because that would make him too overpowered, which would destroy the balance of the game.

And please excuse my habit to use historical references; but the usage of war chariots (and thus battlewagons) declined because during the medieval ages the more developed usage of soldiers on horseback (so Ram riders as well) and pike tactics rendered the warwagons useless.

http://www.ancient.eu/chariot/

Skeeverboy

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Re: Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
« Antwort #29 am: 17. Okt 2015, 20:50 »
I think we have the following Problem:
The Battle Wagon is a Unit with needs very much micro, more as a normal hero.

Multiplayer player how I liked units very much which needs more micro, for example Battle Wagons or heroes how Celeborn, because so we can improve our skill and use them better in every situation. This units aren't easy to use, but more often you use them they will be very much stronger as macro units.

Singleplayer players liked units with macro more, for example normal cavallery or heroes how Gandalf. This units are very easy to use and don't need very much skill to be good.

That means:
Multiplayer player liked Battle Wagons more, Singleplayer player want normal cavallery.

Zitat
and pike tactics rendered the warwagons useless.
When I say that this isn't so, every good Multiplayer player will give me right, and all Singleplayer players will say that I'm wrong. :D