15. Dez 2017, 13:01 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 

News:



Autor Thema: Gondor Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 5178 mal)

Offline Dain@

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 84
  • baruk khazad khazad? ai-menu. For the King ! ! !
Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #60 am: 5. Feb 2017, 10:27 »
Hi people !
 I propose to add a new ability to spell book "Valor previous years" or "Blood of Númenor." This ability will work Passive and give the following bonuses: Health Gondor soldiers + 25% and + 10% damage and armor. The reason I suggest potobnoe following:
First, at the average infantry of Gondor. It is all good, but at the end of the game Gondor has those soldiers who would help defeat the enemy, the special booking over much! (Dwarves, Trolls, and the elite of Mordor, Imladris, etc.)
Second: In the first epoch of the people of the West were much stronger and braver soldiers end of the third period. Gandalf himself said: "Valor west of people forgotten, earlier in the Kings tombs were more luxurious than the current governors of strongholds"
Third: Gondor takes a number! Quality - good, but not enough !. Who can say that Gondor easier to play! it does not require special mechanics for more powerful forces and that Gondor powerful simplicity and clarity of the gameplay the game! Yes I agree with you, but like the end of the game to get a certain quality Impuls and then Gondor will return to its former glory !!!
Also, this capability could open some political Passive ability for the citadel guards or something like that, for what would add zest to the game.

What do you think?

Offline Goodfella

  • Edain Beta-Feedback
  • Bilbos Festgast
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 18
  • *Insert something cool here*
Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #61 am: 8. Mär 2017, 15:41 »
Hi, I’m a big fan edain and regularly play competitive 1v1s against some of the best players.

Before I start my discussion I’d just like to say how impressive it is that the edain team has created such an interesting and (although with some significant exceptions) balanced mod. You guys have created (imo) one of the best rts games in your spare time and given it away for free.

Any criticisms I make are aimed at improving the multiplayer experience to increase the player base and longevity of the mod.

This post includes some quite in depth discussion. I did so in the hope that casual players can understand where I’m coming from and join the discussion too. I hope it doesn’t seem as if I’m going over stuff you already know.

Gondor Cavalry
For my first post, I’d like to discuss Gondor cavalry, specifically their alternate formation. Whilst this is by no means the most significant balance issue, I’d like to talk about it because I think it hasn’t had the attention it deserves. What’s more, I think this subject is interesting because it highlights many aspects of 1v1 play. My explanation is not only a simple 1 cav vs 1 pike scenario but considers the dynamics of an entire match.

The number one issue for me is the +35% armor vs pikes granted by the alternate formation.

Early game battles and 1 Cav vs 1 Pike
In the early game when considering simple clashes of armies, the formation boost to armor doesn’t have much of an affect. When fighting factions with weak early game pikes, such as lorien, the boost in armor IS enough to kill a single upgraded pike (without trample revenge). However, this has little effect on the overall game because:
1.   Gondor cav is significantly more expensive than pike units in the early game and will lose in 2v1 scenario
2.   Factions with weak/no early game pikes have strengths elsewhere (e.g. lorien’s archers and isengards anti-cav wargs)

Harassing and map control
This is the area in which I think the formation becomes too powerful.

When playing competitively it is paramount to wrestle for map control. If you allow your opponent to occupy most outside farms he will have a superior economy which will be invested into his army = gg 4u. Wrestling for map control consists of direct attacks to your enemy’s army, harassing his farms and defending your own. The most effective way of harassing your enemy is to split your army and hit multiple farms at once, making it more difficult for your enemy to defend all at once.

Cavalry in general is very effective in 1v1 matches because it is so good for securing map control. Having cavalry on the field stops your enemy harassing your farms with unprotected sword battalions, because your cavalry can zip all over the map quickly and run them over. Therefore, once cavalry hits the field your enemy must harass with at least 1 pike unit.

By midgame you can easily have 2-3 battalions of cavalry. With other factions 1-2 pike units are enough to counter cavalry and continue the harassment. This is not the case vs Gondor because of their formation. 2-3 gondor cav can deal with 1-2 pikes (unupgraded) by stopping before trample and switching to formation and surrounding the enemy. One battalion can tank the dmg whilst the others inflict flank dmg.

You NEED map control so the enemy is forced to commit more pike units to the harassment. By committing these units to the flanks your enemy weakens their armies over the map, especially in the centre. Moreover, such a heavy investment in pikes by your enemy increase the relative power of your infantry army, as swords are the direct counter to pikes.

Upgrades and buffs

Forge blades
Forge blades do a lot to counter the problem of gondor cav because of the additional dmg pikes get to cavalry and monsters. So, rushing for forge blades is an effective counter to gondor cav’s strength vs pikes.

However, forge blades on cav increase dmg to structures significantly increasing your ability to harass your enemy. So, any gains can quickly be lost by constant, quick cav harassment.

Additional armour in mid/late game
Gondor cav, (which is tanky by default) can receive all the usual upgrades to improve their armour and survivability (heavy armour, banner carriers horse shields – and additional +25% armour vs pikes).

This in combination with buffs from heroes, 30% from Boromir and Faramir, denethor buffs and heroic statues means that Gondor cav can still stand up reasonably well to upgraded pikes, so long as they are not outnumbered.

All this means is that it is very difficult for your enemy to get and maintain map control on the flanks when playing against Gondor cav. This problem is further exacerbated by the fact that Gondor can buff their farms through the market place (+30% production).

In the late-game I will often have 4-5 or sometimes even 6 battalions of Gondor cav, the more you have the better – your opponent must invest more are more into their harassing armies (up to a point, you need infantry too!)

Therefore Gondor’s cavalry more than any other faction can grab and maintain map control very easily,

Countering Gondor cav
You either must invest very heavily in flanking armies to harass your enemy on the flanks, thereby weakening your presence in the centre of the map OR concede the flanks in favour of keeping your entire army in the centre of the map and going for a quick outpost. To make it clear, it MUST be one or the other because any stray unit too far from your army will be killed if the cav sees it.

Either way your pretty buggered. Even if you do go for centre/ outpost route you will have a significantly lower economy. Your outpost still won’t be safe either as it can be rushed by the cav and infantry armies. The cav can attack your outpost buildings whilst suffering minimal dmg even vs pikes bcs of their formation.

Anti-cavalry cavalry is a really nice and interesting idea. Wargs can do significant dmg to a gondor cavalry rush bcs of their howl ability (makes them faster than cav and +50% dmg), the fact that they have lower CP values and the bcs gondors formation has no effective on cav. However, this counter is limited to only a few factions. Once upgraded gondor cav is pretty decent against anti-cav cavalry anyway because of their shear tanky-ness.

There are a few somewhat solid counter I can think of:
1. going for quick upgrades on elite pikes (tower-guards, Mirkwood pikes, carn-dum pikes, imla pikes). However, this isn’t easy when you are constantly being harassed by infantry and cav.

2.Cavalry archers are another interesting choice, particularly the elk riders due to their knockback.

3.Similarly, having an equal number of beorn bears to cav ratio is an effective counter because of their knockback but they are vulnerable to flank dmg if outnumbered and suffer from a lack of upgrades in the mid/late game.

4. Probably most important, spells that knock-down slow or freeze the cav, so that you can try to catch it when it is outnumbered.

Conclusion
All this post I have been talking about how well Gondor cavalry can stand up to their direct counters but you also have to consider their innate effective-ness against everything else (the role of any cav - to counter swords archers and buildings). The end result is a cavalry army that is extremely hard to kill even with direct counters that can deliver game-deciding damage.

Essentially, the formation switch has no disadvantage:
The switch is instantaneous so if you need the speed back to escape you get it straight away. If you are losing you can run (if you are winning you can reduce casualties with the switch – no risk). If you are outnumbered or your enemy power buffs/debuffs on one side of the map – so what? You can just switch stances and run to the other side of the map to harass then send some infantry to stop their harass.

The same argument could be made for gondor soldier’s armour/speed trade off. However, it is nowhere near as significant, bcs of their base speed. If gondor soldiers had the same bse speed as cav their stance change would be significantly better – again bcs you can’t catch them but they can buff if winning.

To be clear, Gondor cav is not op in the same sense as haldir’s arrow or thorin iii where getting them and exploiting them is very easy and can really break balance without much effort. To exploit this imbalance is quite difficult and requires good micro and will be countered if your opponent is significantly better. However, between equal players Gondor cav can really break balance if used correctly. Gondor cav (unlike thorin the iii 😝) isn’t capable of winning the battle alone, you need infantry and heroes too.

The solutions I see to the problem are:
1.   Simply scrap the armour boost to pikes – the gondor cav will still benefit from all other armour boost and will still be tanky af but more vulnerable to their direct counter. Allowing a few pikes to do the job of harassing without the worry of instantly losing them.
2.   Have a transition period between formation swaps, so that the cav can be ‘caught’ by pikes
3.   Some may think this is too far but I like the idea of increase armour vs sword but decreased vs pikes when in formation, this way it will be easier to counter attacks on buildings but the enemy will also be punished if they forget to protect with pikes.

As we move into 4.5 I see this problem only getting worse because:
1.   Formations of gondor give +20% dmg and armour global
2.   Towers are getting nerfed – even easier to kill enemy buildings including resource buildings in main camps without walls (Mordor, Isen).

This formation is not super op in a vacuum, but when everything else is considered it quickly spirals out of control - all Gondor’s buffs to armour, denethor’s dmg buffs, buff to eco and cavalries innate speed and effectiveness in 1v1s.

Thanks for reading, I look forward to peoples feedback.





Euggghhh, I'm dead - Gildor 2017

Offline -DJANGO-

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Zwergischer Entdecker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 477
  • I might play Unchained!
Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #62 am: 8. Mär 2017, 16:17 »
Congrats on your 1. post!  ;)

I share the same opinion and we've already talked about it internal. As far as i know, it is technically not possible to lower the amour boost of the ability to only one unit kind (here: pikes).
Maybe there will be a change, we have to see. Anyhow, it is helpful that it got attention on  the public forum. Makes it easier to convince  :)

Offline Mogat

  • LPS-Sieger
  • Elbischer Pilger
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 167
Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #63 am: 8. Mär 2017, 16:38 »
I have to say, that is a very well written post with good arguments that consider the dynamics of a game.

I agree completely with what you point out, although I would go even further and generalize this problem.
Imo this includes other cavalry aswell (imladris, wargs) but in a minor extend ofcourse than gondor knights with their formation.
Fact is, that cavalry is able to fight heads on against pikes, as long as they have atleast a 2-3:1 superiority in numbers.
(that is not a firm number because it depends furthermore on enemy-spells, enemy-heroes etc., but a good player knows when he can pick a fight with cav and when he has to run away and deal damage somewhere else). The rest of the reasons Goodfella points out well in the paragraph "harassing and mapcontrol"

So in the end I think gondor is the most extreme faction, in which the formation exponentiates the problem, but I think the fact that pikes don't do enough damage to cav in direct combat is the largest problem, combined with the surreal damage upgraded blades do to buildings.

Otherwise I agree with each of Goodfellas solutions, this issue need definitely to be looked upon.


Cogito, ergo sum

Offline Goodfella

  • Edain Beta-Feedback
  • Bilbos Festgast
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 18
  • *Insert something cool here*
Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #64 am: 8. Mär 2017, 17:32 »
Yes, I think the problem can be generalized to other factions and that gondor is only an extreme example. isengard’s wargs are like gondor cav in late game especially if you get the steelworks and use the howl buff at the right time.

I think a big part of the issue is the initial trample, once the pikes are trampled they can’t attack and lie on the floor. Hitting the ‘s’ button whislt the cav is on top does an instant huge amount of dmg, potentially killing the battalion in seconds if it has no heavy armour. This is a problem for the pike battalion whether you have forge blades applied or not, a dmg boost is irrelevant if you can’t attack!

This problem is reduced somewhat if you have a big army clump, which works with swords (in combination with pikes) as the trample declaration can trap the cav on the clump. But as highlighted before this reduces your ability to split armies and successfully harass

However, I think forge blades on pikes does solve a lot of the problems vs the cav of most factions if you have more than one battalion of pikes. This is especially true vs cavalry that have low numbers of individuals per battalion. Charging imla cav into upgraded pikes can quite easily kill the battalion. The single unit cavalry, beorns and battlewagons are much more susceptible to pikes (upgraded or not).

This is part of the problem of having a battalion based army: the only real damage is killing an entire battalion. The pikes may kill half the battalion or even the majority but if one individual survives it is irrelevant. Imagine if it were a game like starcraft where the units are individuals, killing 6 of them would be a monetary loss but in this they regenerate for free. And expensive units like gondor cav regen just the same as cheap units like lorien pikes. How do you solve that problem other than increasing the dmg from pikes to cav battalions (not just individuals) to the point where charging into pikes gives a significant risk of losing entire battalions?

That’s the big problem with some cav, especially gondor - they have so much armour and so many individuals in the battlion, how do you kill them all? Really you only lose cav battalions if you forget where they are and they start a fight they will lose when you’re not looking, otherwise you can easily retreat them. Anyhow, more often than not, losing 1/2 battalions of cav is not gg for you anyway bcs of the advantage they have made for yourself.

Like you say in most cases, cav will win if more than 2:1 outnumber so should pikes get a big buff to cav? Of course, that’s got to be balanced too, I guess we have to decide who will win in what situation, like one battalion of upgraded lorien pikes shouldn’t be able to kill 4 bats of upgraded cav, but where is the line drawn? And what specific changes, if any, should be made to ensure that pikes are better vs cav (if it is agreed that is what needs to happen)?
Euggghhh, I'm dead - Gildor 2017

Offline koh11

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 15
Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #65 am: 18. Mär 2017, 04:00 »
This is part of the problem of having a battalion based army: the only real damage is killing an entire battalion. The pikes may kill half the battalion or even the majority but if one individual survives it is irrelevant. Imagine if it were a game like starcraft where the units are individuals, killing 6 of them would be a monetary loss but in this they regenerate for free. And expensive units like gondor cav regen just the same as cheap units like lorien pikes. How do you solve that problem other than increasing the dmg from pikes to cav battalions (not just individuals) to the point where charging into pikes gives a significant risk of losing entire battalions?

You make an excellent point. Why can't how healing works on Battalions be changed? From your post it seems how healing currently works is what makes the situation worse as its easier to re compensate even when you make a mistake with expensive unit.

I guess a proposal would be something like healing only heals your units to full health rather than re-spawning them when you are near a healing well? Or even an option to retrain a battalion for resources rather than the healing well or banner carriers just re-spawning them.
« Letzte Änderung: 18. Mär 2017, 04:03 von koh11 »

Offline Captain Jin

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 13
  • By the blood of our people is your land kept safe.
Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #66 am: 1. Apr 2017, 23:57 »
What if we increase the damage Gondor Knights receive from archers by about 30% and make Gondor Cavalry Shields reduce bow damage by 40%, replacing pike resistance?

Knocks out two birds with one stone, I think. Cavalry micro is aimed for archers, resource buildings, and isolated swordsmen as you said. Archers can usually get a volley off in attack-move before they are ran down, so simply increase said damage to where it may inflict a loss or two on the unit. Would also make protecting resource building a bit easier if you can send archers without worrying they'll get entirely destroyed. And while I'm not sure of the general opinion, I rarely ever get cavalry shields, as I don't often plan on sending my cavalry to charge into pikes (as strong as their resistances are). This change would make cavalry shields that much more attractive as an upgrade, fitting with Gondor's general play-style.
« Letzte Änderung: 2. Apr 2017, 18:49 von Captain Jin »

Offline -DJANGO-

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Zwergischer Entdecker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 477
  • I might play Unchained!
Re: Gondor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #67 am: 2. Apr 2017, 02:14 »
This argument seems reasoned. Gondor Knights cost 800, thus have also relatively hight default HP, plus the amor upgrade (which is already a good choice against archer damage). Making them a bit more vulnerable in their default setting against archer damage should therefore be fair.
Since the formation gives them already a buff against pikes, it makes only sense that their second counter (archers) gets a little better against Knights. Furthermore it would fit, that the late Upgrade "Cavalery Shields" on the other hand counteracts this second counter at last and not intensify their strength against pikes even more.
Your suggested values -30 % amor against archer damage in default setting but +40 % amor against archer damage through "Cavalery Shields" are in my opinion fine.
On paper that would give them at last +10% amor against archer damage - the Amor Upgrade not included.
« Letzte Änderung: 2. Apr 2017, 02:19 von -DJANGO- »