12. Dez 2018, 22:28 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge. Hierbei werden gemäß Datenschutzerklärung Benutzername und Passwort verschlüsselt für die gewählte Dauer in einem Cookie abgelegt.


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 


Autor Thema: Rohan Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 15371 mal)

Odysseus

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 714
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #15 am: 12. Jan 2016, 15:35 »
It's mostly because of Rohan's focus on cavalry that the infantry units are largely forgotten or underused. Very few people actually get archers even though they can be a strong combination with peasant spam early on, and even fewer get spear throwers. You figure that Rohirrim archers basically do what Rohan archers do, but then better and they cost less than the Spear Throwers.
It's kind of the same thing with Peasants. Drafted Peasants are only 15% less effective in all areas than Gondor Soldiers, if I recall correctly what ET said, their cost is also lower so they are kind of similar still, yet they are largely forgotten in late-game.
I already suggested something in this thread that could possibly make them more interesting to purchase, having some advantages against heavier units and heroes. What do you think about that?
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Hamanathnath

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gefährte der Gemeinschaft
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 409
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #16 am: 12. Jan 2016, 17:06 »
Well I do want to test Spear Throwers out, hopefully later today, so I don't want to say what needs a change and what doesn't need a change.  Your suggestion is definitely an option though.
I will make a post on this thread once I test the Spear Throwers. 

I would still like to see Rohan get some defensive upgrades to camps and castles.  Fire Arrows to the sentry towers would be the best option, but again, I would still like to see ideas for other defensive upgrades that would be unique to Rohan.

Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #17 am: 12. Jan 2016, 19:00 »
Rohan's biggest flaw defensively right now is that on castles, they have no long range option at all. All the other factions with walls get some kind of mounted catapult, why not Rohan?
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gefährte der Gemeinschaft
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 409
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #18 am: 12. Jan 2016, 19:15 »
I think that catapults on the walls of Rohan castles would definitely help defensively but...... I don't know, something is making me think they shouldn't have catapults on walls.  Maybe it's just I'm used to them not being there.  Is there any point in the books where it says Rohan has catapults on its walls? 

I remember, while playing The Lord of the Rings Online, there were defensive catapults placed on the deeping wall of Helms Deep you could control.  Idk if that's lore accurate though.

Lord of Mordor

  • Administrator
  • Bewahrer des roten Buches
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 15.225
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #19 am: 12. Jan 2016, 19:19 »
Rivendell won't have catapults either, and Lorien lacks both them and proper walls in the first place. It's good for the diversity of the game to have differences between the factions in many areas, including the defensive powers.

I agree that the spearthrowers don't seem to have a very strong place in the faction at the moment. They're one of those units that were originally born mainly because of atmospheric reasons (Peter Jackson throws a spear in the movies!) and not because there was a role we really needed to fill. On paper they're actually quite powerful - a strong ranged unit with knockback that's not afraid of cavalry - but Rohan is not usually played in a way that needs them. The idea was that they're an elite unit to support your peasant spam against excessive enemy cavalry if you decide to go for that strategy. I'm certainly open to giving them a new role if you have any ideas :)
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Richtlinien für Edain-Vorschläge
I Edain Suggestion Guidelines

Melkor Bauglir

  • Bündnisgenosse der Elben und Menschen
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.195
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #20 am: 12. Jan 2016, 19:52 »
I don't even think they need a new role, just a straight buff. I agree, their role sounds good on paper, eventhough like a niche one. However their main problem is their cost: 120 CP! This is 30 CP more than Tower Guards and double the amount of regular pikes. There is simply no reason to buy them to all, because their cost is just excessive. I personally think that the suggestion for decreasing their costs to 500 (maybe 600, becauseTower Guards cost that much, right?) and 90 CP is a good start.
Also, there is no way this ever backfires into like spamming spear-throwers: This unit is still a worse option against regular infantry, so against them archers would still be more powerful (having 5 additional members). And Rohans LG is so much focussed around cavalry, I would certainly not try to mass this unit just because it is now 90 instead of 120 CP.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
« Letzte Änderung: 12. Jan 2016, 19:55 von Melkor Bauglir »

Odysseus

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 714
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #21 am: 12. Jan 2016, 19:56 »
Well, as I suggested, I don't think they need a new role per se, but they could perhaps use some additives that could compensate for Rohan's weaker overall late-game compared to the other factions. It would prevent ET from adding an additional unit to the roster as well, so to me, that seems like a win-win situation.

In late-game, Rohan mostly survives with a combination of upgraded Eastfold Rohirrim and Rohirrim Archers to compliment each other (and Royal Guard with glorious Theoden of course), but some factions, like Isengard, can nearly nullify the presence of these horse archers because of the great shields.

What if, for instance, the spear throwers could fill this gap? They could be more useful against heavily armoured units and heroes( if needed), because well, a massive spear to the face. Surely this would make the unit no longer niche and provide perhaps some really good late-game pushing power by creating holes in heavily armoured defenses? Due to their low ROF, their average range and price, I'd say it's fairly balanced.

Just so you know, this idea makes a lot of sense to me, so I'll probably utter it a couple of times more. Be prepared :P.

PS: Lord of Mordor, did you check your PM? I had sent you something :).
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #22 am: 12. Jan 2016, 20:00 »
I agree something should definitely be done about spearthrowers. 120 CP is too much, 90 CP 500 resources would be much more balanced. Additionally, I agree with Odysseus, armor piercing would synergize quite well with their knockback ability.

In terms of the walls, I didn't necessarily mean that they need a catapult, just something long ranged that can hit enemy catapults. Lorien has Caras Galadhon Guardians which have siege level range, and I'm sure that Rivendell will have something similar, so Rohan should have some form of long ranged upgrade for the walls or a unit. Perhaps you could add a Spearthrowers Wall Upgrade, which has catapult level range?
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Melkor Bauglir

  • Bündnisgenosse der Elben und Menschen
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.195
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #23 am: 12. Jan 2016, 20:06 »
Hmm... I sense a problem around here, mainly because horse archers are supposed to be good against heavily armored units. You are right, even those aren't able to just hit Isengard's LG army straight into the face and win, but I personally would always ask myself: Is Rohan even supposed to do so? Don't get me wrong, this would be a nice role for the spear-throwers, but I don't think that Rohan should have such a "juggernaut" unit in order to engage massive, upgraded infantry blobs this way.
I personally don't think a niche unit is bad per se, but they still have to be viable in some way or another. All I'm saying is, that I don't think spear-throwers need a drastic overhaul, just some care in order to fulfill their part of the game. (Which translates to: Just buff them a bit, e.g. as suggested, and see what happens. No need to break what isn't broken!)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #24 am: 12. Jan 2016, 20:55 »
I would argue that spearthrowers ARE broken, brokenly weak. They need something to make them worth buying.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gefährte der Gemeinschaft
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 409
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #25 am: 12. Jan 2016, 21:41 »
I'm glad there is a lot of interest in this topic. 

I don't know if Spear Throwers need a different role.  I like the idea of them being good at defending peasants against cavalry.  The problem I have is that Farmhand can already do that.  Yes, Farmahand worse then Spearthrowers, but they are also more then half the price AND half of the cp cost, making it more effective just to get 2 groups of Farmhands then a group of Spear Throwers.  Farmhands are also a lot more readily available, and have more soldiers per group, making them overall a better option.  So if there is one thing that Spear Throwers really need, it's making them cost only 90 cp. 

Most of us all agree that Rohan has a lot of trouble dealing with heavy pike defenses.  With that in mind, I think that there are 3 things, besides the cp cost, that will make the spear throwers effective.

1.  Give their range attack some sort of bypass against Armour.  This would make them much more useful late game, especially against the Heavy Armour factions.  I don't think then need to bypass ALL enemy Armour, but maybe 50%?

2.  With their ability, in addition to knocking down enemies, the enemies hit will have an Armour decrease for a limited time.  Now if u want them to be good Peasant Spam support, this is a must because Late in the game, Peasants don't have a chance against Enemies with good Armour.

3.  Make them better in melee combat, helping with protecting your peasants against Cavalry a bit better. 

If you add these 3 suggestions, and leave their cost at 700, making them hard to spam, I think they would be well worth buying. 

I would really like to here some feedback on these suggestions.

Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #26 am: 12. Jan 2016, 22:16 »
I just had an interesting idea that might be impossible to implement. What if they were mounted? They could function as an extremely heavy cavalry that has both very strong ranged and melee damage, to serve in Rohan's late game.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Adrigabbro

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 388
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #27 am: 12. Jan 2016, 22:20 »
Wow, I love this idea!


"That still only counts as one!"

Melkor Bauglir

  • Bündnisgenosse der Elben und Menschen
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.195
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #28 am: 12. Jan 2016, 22:27 »
Just one technical information, because this idea has been brought up many times recently: It is not possible to really ignore armor.
Every unit which deals armor piercing damage doesn't really ignore armor -they just use a specific damage type, units with heavy armor are vulnerable against. (The heavy armor upgrade of course changes all armor values (it's no flat buff, like +50% armor!!, so they receive simply more damage of this damage type.)
Another option is to use an armor modifier (like -x% armor for y seconds), but this would not just effect the spear-throwers' damage. Eventhough such a modifier doesn't need to effect all armor values, it can e.g. only change a specific one, therefore, if only spear-throwers were using this damage type, only their damage would be increased -however, there aren't exactly free damage types lying around for every unit to access, so this would have the side effect of also weakening the enemies armor against other units who just happen to deal the same damage type).
Hope I could clarify some points a bit. ;)

For the spear-throwers in particular it would therefore be the easiest way of just giving them an armor piercing damage type -however there isn't much more freedom, like "horse archers are this good against heavy armor and spear-throwers this good". (Although there might be more than one armor piercing damage type, namely CAVALRY_RANGED and URUK -if I remember correctly, the first one is used for ranged units, the second one for melee.)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Hamanathnath

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gefährte der Gemeinschaft
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 409
Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #29 am: 13. Jan 2016, 13:55 »
That's very good to know Melkor Bauglir.  Learn something new everyday :P

Well what I was going for was that Spear Throwers would be able to do good damage to very Heavily Armoured units, and their ability would lower the Armour of the enemies hit as well as knock them back, making Peasants deal at least decent damage against Heavily Armoured units, for a limited time.

I'm still a bit confused on how Armour exactly works, but hopefully you understand my intentions.

Now the difference I was going for between Spear Throwers and Horse Archers is that they both Pierce Armour, but Spear Throwers, as Peasant support, will be stronger at killing ShieldBearers and swordsmen, while Horse Archers would be stronger against pikes.  I don't know if it is possible to be that specific, but if it is then those are the roles they should fill.

I tested out spear throwers yesterday, and my opinion on them has not changed much.  The only thing that concerns me is how little health they have.  Even the Wildmen Lair can deal a lot of damage to them, maybe kill them if they are not careful.  I still thing they need to be more effective in melee combat.

Also, this is optional, but their ability doesn't seem to knockback wargs from a Warg Lair, so adding that would be nice too, but that's not much of a problem to be honest   :D

My last suggestion (for now, I'll be back :) ) would be to give the Rohan Wall Banner to increase the range of archers by a small amount, giving Rohan some sort of defense against catapults with their upgraded archers.  I don't really ever see anyone buy Wall Banners, so making them slightly better would be nice.
« Letzte Änderung: 13. Jan 2016, 14:12 von Hamanathnath »