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Autor Thema: Mordor Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 21679 mal)

Skeeverboy

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #15 am: 3. Jan 2016, 21:49 »
So, you all find that the free orcs are to strong? In 4.1 was Mordor the weakest faction, in 4.1.1 the Orcs were strengthened:
Zitat
- Mordor Orcs, Minas Morgul Orcs and Dol Guldur Orcs:
* Health and damage increased by 10%
* Recruitment speed increased by 10%
* Grant 50% more experience to the barracks upon recruitment
Do you think that one or two of this buffs was to much?

And what do you think about the other Units from Mordor? Are they strong enaugh, or should they have a buff/become weaker?

Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #16 am: 4. Jan 2016, 00:15 »
Personally, Dol Guldur and Minas Morgul Orcs are fine. Although, I do agree with the idea of nerfing the default orc a little, if only to decrease the no-brainer "shift-click 15 battalions'' playstyle a bit, and promote the usage of the other default orc variants.

As it stands, I think the default orc's health is not the problem (although I wouldn't be against a nerf, per se). Their health is pretty pathetic, however, their damage is still decent. I think that damage buff of 10% should be lowered again, either by 5% or simply removed altogether.

This way, default orcs become meat shields only, which should be their role I think.

There is a risk that default orcs will do very little against creeps and such, but if needed, some kind of creep modifier might do the trick.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #17 am: 4. Jan 2016, 03:05 »
I have no issue with the way the orcs are currently. The problem that most people face is the ridiculous debuff that happens once you have several Nazgul out, which cuts any unit down to orc level, even when upgraded. All you really have to do to beat Mordor is rush their orc barracks early on, then target their heroes and make cavalry. I'm fine with them as they are currently.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Adrigabbro

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #18 am: 4. Jan 2016, 19:23 »
I agree with Django and Odysseus. Mordor orcs do too much damage when they should mainly be a meat shield and when you should rely on archers/overseers/outpost orcs/Cirith Ungol orcs/trolls/heroes/easterlings/haradrims and of course the Eye of Sauron to do damage.

Some ideas:
- Increase the cooldown of the spells from the power tree BUT increase the discount given by the Tribute camps. The same way the cost of siege weapons could be increased with the discount given by the Arsenal. This way you would have to do a real choice between Tribute camps and Arsenal, that is to say between powers and siege weapons.
- Nerf Mordor orcs but buff trolls. Right now, they do not match siege weapons in most matchups. Additionally, nobody builds Slaughter houses at the moment ; there is currently no real choice between them and Slave farms.
- Nerf the left part of the power tree: the Barricade and Shelob are so much superior to the reinforcements of Rhun and the Arrow volley. Pushing the barricade to a 3 PP spell could be a good start.

@Kryptik: One does not simply go into Mordor! Jokes apart, it is so much easier said than done. You can't simply expect to rush enemy barracks and go through enemy orcs and towers.
Otherwise yes you are right: Nazguls are such a pain in the ass, their debuff is outrageously strong.


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #19 am: 4. Jan 2016, 22:38 »
All factions are capable of quickly rushing Mordor with their starting 2 battalions. Mordor doesn't have enough money at the start to make more than 1 barracks and either a scout hero, a couple farms or a couple towers. Chances are, if you are fast enough, they will have spent the money on farms, and their barracks will be undefended except by the incredibly weak free orcs and maybe gorbag. Easy pickings, I do it all the time. I'm assuming its a 1k start of course, that's what balance is based off of, at least whenever I'm talking about something I'm talking a 1k start.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #20 am: 4. Jan 2016, 22:52 »
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to work only if you are a very aggressive player because otherwise you wouldn't know you're facing Mordor, right? Mordor's starting units are indeed very weak, but if you intend to just expand (which might even be fairly reasonable with certain factions), you miss this window of opportunity. No problem if you like rushing in the first place of course, but this problem still remains, eventhough perhaps not for your personal style of playing.

I think there isn't a big nerf needed, because it was basically only very small changes that pushed Mordor into being too powerful. I guess, decreasing the damage of orc warriors by say 10% and increasing the cost of barricade by 1 should be enough.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #21 am: 5. Jan 2016, 02:25 »
The key to victory in any edain match is aggression. That's the mark of experienced players compared to new players. You have to seize opportunities and keep your opponent on the defensive, especially when your playing against Mordor or playing as Rohan.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #22 am: 5. Jan 2016, 11:29 »
Aggression doesn't mean that you have to rush the enemy base immediately. You are the only one that I have met so far who does that on a regular basis, Kryptik :P

On Topic: I didn't play for two months or so, but standard orcs usually were not the problem for me. You have to keep in mind that fighting orcs in the early game is nearly always a win for Mordor, because you trade your "expensive" units against his free orcs while Shagrat/Gorbag gains levels and his economy isn't pressured, meaning that he can get to his heavy hitting units quicker.
Attack their economy to delay heroes and the outpost, prepare to counter (ideally kill) early heroes like the Nazgul and Gothmog, put more emphasis on controlling the outposts at the cost of settlements. The last one is important and on maps like Iron Hills or Fords of Isen relatively easy, too.

Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #23 am: 5. Jan 2016, 12:43 »
Mmm yes. It seems to be very map dependent to me. Although, I believe that it's usually straining to play against Mordor, and that the longer the game goes on, the smaller your chance of success becomes. I find it a good point made by Adrigabbro: You can permit yourself to make little mistakes if you wish to outperform Mordor, while Mordor has a lot of breathing room. 1V1 is my go to, but in teamgames Mordor becomes even more of a tyrant. 

However, there is hope for us ''lesser'' players. It's not undoable ^^. Hitting the economy of Mordor is the best thing you can do, I concur, since Mordor does not have any special way to improve their economy. I think only Gorbag/Shagrat and Gothmog, correct? Anyway, do whatever you can to prevent those bloody Nazguls from debuffing your soldiers. Quite nasty, they are. A couple of pikes though, and they'll be mincemeat.

On a last note: If I recall correctly, the rushing tactic early on is the kind of playstyle that the ET wanted to avoid, no? The base is supposed to be a more attractive target, later in the game, was written in one of their articles. Not to mention that the tactic is very risky. Only 1 sentry tower (150) can already put quite a dent in your 2 starting squads were you to rush the Mordor Barracks.

 
« Letzte Änderung: 5. Jan 2016, 12:53 von Odysseus »
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Adrigabbro

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #24 am: 5. Jan 2016, 14:48 »
On a last note: If I recall correctly, the rushing tactic early on is the kind of playstyle that the ET wanted to avoid, no? The base is supposed to be a more attractive target, later in the game, was written in one of their articles. Not to mention that the tactic is very risky. Only 1 sentry tower (150) can already put quite a dent in your 2 starting squads were you to rush the Mordor Barracks.

I have to agree with you. That's what I meant yesterday when I said you can't go through his enemy towers. ^^
But I will try to focus more on harassing Mordor than fighting his orcs. That is definitely a good point. Though, I think it can be pretty hard depending on the map or/and your faction.


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #25 am: 5. Jan 2016, 17:57 »
Well, I'm a really aggressive player, I try to immediately go steal creeps and destroy enemy resource buildings and barracks asap. That's just me personally. It does all come down to what map and faction you are though. I can give some faction advice.

Gondor: Do not start with a signal fire, get farms and then get cavalry. Gondor cavalry will absolutely wreck anything mordor has except for the ungol halberdiers, and its great for creeping.

Rohan: This is the only matchup where peasant spam is not very efficient. Get cavalry asap, and you own the field.

Elves: Beornings, beornings, beornings.

Dwarves: Play as Iron Hills. The charge ability of the basic guardian combined with the debuff of ravens absolutely wreck basic orcs. Get Murin fast to kill enemy nazgul.

Isengard: I would call this matchup the most difficult of all factions. Wildmen spam isn't great, and is expensive compared to Mordors orc spam. However that's the only real choice you have, combined with your strong Bill Ferny. Get Wulfgar fast as well to kill nazgul, he's almost impossible to spot in the middle of some wildmen.

Besides that, general tips are avoid fighting enemy orcs and go straight for resource buildings, and target enemy heroes with your heroes while fighting. Mordor has a distinct disadvantage when it comes to heroes, they are all really unique and noticeable in the middle of armies, while most other factions heroes blend in with the troops quite well. Gorbag is the weakest scout hero in the game, and shagrat is even worse, so use that to your advantage. If you ever want to try it, try hitting the barracks asap, avoiding even creeping. If you destroy the barracks fast enough you will absolutely cripple the enemy. I will again restate that I do not think that a nerf is necessary for Mordor in their current form, you just have to have the knowledge to counter them. Although I do agree with making barricade a 3 point power, I think that it should be swapped in cost with the reinforcements of Rhun.
« Letzte Änderung: 5. Jan 2016, 18:00 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

-DJANGO-

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #26 am: 5. Jan 2016, 19:59 »
Maybe we should try to divert the discussion away from general tips against Mordor, to the question if Standard Orcs need a nerf. => Skeeverboy
Zitat
- Mordor Orcs, Minas Morgul Orcs and Dol Guldur Orcs:
* Health and damage increased by 10%
* Recruitment speed increased by 10%
* Grant 50% more experience to the barracks upon recruitment
Do you think that one or two of this buffs was to much?

In my opinion i think we should try it out! I have the feeling that Standard Orcs do little too much damage (without any buff, leadership etc.) and therefore don't fit in their role as "Meatshield-Unit".
In detail:

@EliteKryptik: Maybe you can elaborate on why you are fine with the Standard Orc original values...

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #27 am: 5. Jan 2016, 20:43 »
Because I play and win against Mordor all the time. If your just trying to win in a swordsmen slugfest with orcs, of course you will lose. You have to counter them, just like you would any other faction, with archers and cavalry. Orc damage is already so low that you can expect to lose with 5 to 1 odds, especially if the enemy has a hero and leadership. If the Mordor army is filled entirely with free orcs they cannot do anything to counter cavalry or archers. Filling your CP with free orcs never works.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

-DJANGO-

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #28 am: 5. Jan 2016, 21:12 »
Well...(extreme example but still Archers & Riders  :D)

Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #29 am: 5. Jan 2016, 21:45 »
I think it is quite obvious. If you get all these Orc tents on top of the Mordor Barracks, it just becomes a huge snowball that you can't really stop. The Rohan player's choices were questionable, but his strategy wasn't a bad one per se.

You can get so many orcs that even a large cavalry charge gets slowed down heavily, even though that's what pikes are supposed to do... Seriously, a massive blob of orcs can only be taken out quickly by power spells or mass slayer abilities, otherwise it will take some time and time is Mordor's ally in this mod.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”