21. Nov 2018, 17:12 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge. Hierbei werden gemäß Datenschutzerklärung Benutzername und Passwort verschlüsselt für die gewählte Dauer in einem Cookie abgelegt.


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 


Autor Thema: Mordor Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 23439 mal)

Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #30 am: 6. Jan 2016, 07:48 »
First of all, this is a 3v3, balance is based off of 1v1. Additionally, Rhun is a terribly hard map for Rohan to get a good start on.

Now, big mistakes that the Rohan player made:

He didn't start with corrupted theo, thereby not getting traitors, cruel taxes or banishment.

He bought normal rohirrim instead of rohirrim of the eastfold, and got rohirrim archers far too early. A solid Eastfold spam would've done a lot more damage and cost far less.

He put an archery range in his base instead of on an outpost.

He didn't fill up his base with economy structures fast enough and didn't upgrade outer resource buildings fast enough.

He didn't get Gamling, and therefore didn't have a free source of peasants(FAIL)

He didn't creep his troll and let you steal it.

He didn't attack at all and played extremely passive, you played aggressive and took map control, look who won?

To sum it up: The Rohan player sucked. I'm sorry to say it and mean no offense but its true.

Obviously if a player has multiple outposts he can win, this is true for any unit not just orcs. Its not very easy to get an outpost with multiple orc tents in a 1v1 match against an experienced player. My opinion is still unchanged, Mordor orcs are fine. I might also point out that the Gondor player on your team was kicking the crap out of the enemy Mordor's basic orcs.
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Jan 2016, 08:05 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Odysseus

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 714
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #31 am: 6. Jan 2016, 13:54 »
Yes, I refrained from purpose to refer to the many mistakes the Rohan player made, but all I think is this: Mordor can just spam default orcs into infinity, and it won't cost him anything, apart from pop and a short amount of time. I know that 3v3 and 4v4 are a mess when it comes to balance, that is with all RTS games imo. So many factors exponentially skyrocketing, it's beyond control.

Still, all I want to say is that there are other tactics that can be employed by Mordor, but very few use them because spamming default free Orcs actually does the trick most of the time. It's so easy and it lacks strategy if you ask me. I like to encourage different build orders, but I suppose that is out of the question for Mordor, due to their expensive buildings that produce units.

Anyway, we'll see what happens. Et might change something, they might not.

“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #32 am: 6. Jan 2016, 14:23 »
Well the 2 big options for Mordor currently are to either go for orcs, or trolls. Trolls are too weak for their price tag right now, which is why everybody goes for orcs. If the Trolls received a buff then it would make it more desirable to use them. That's why I disagree with nerfing orcs, instead of weakening an already weak aspect lets strengthen a weak aspect that should be strong to begin with.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gefährte der Gemeinschaft
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 409
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #33 am: 6. Jan 2016, 15:10 »
I will agree that Orc Spam is decently hard to deal with, especially on the Rhun map because of the limited space.  But from past experiences, one good thing about countering Orc Spam is the honestly the amount of Power Points you get from killing the orcs.  Depending on what faction you are, you can get a Spellbook power that is really effective against orcs. 

Every faction has some sort of way dealing with Orc spam.  Archers and Cavalry, if used correctly, are incredibly effective against it. 

I agree that orc spam is really the only way people play mordor, but I think that is the case because of how ineffective starting with anything else is. 

I agree with the people that say Mountain Trolls need to be stronger.  They are really only good against swordsmen.  They also do good damage to buildings, but they are so easy to focus down.  They become a lot better when upgraded, and drummer trolls are very useful, but I think how much damage they take from heroes and archers is the problem.  I would suggest that they take less damage from both Heroes and Not Upgraded Arrows, and remove the ability for them to trample (because it is more of a problem then a benefit for Trolls because of how much health they lose from pikes), with a small price increase (maybe from 600 to 800).  Also, maybe the Armour upgrade should make them slightly more resistant to all arrows, if it doesn't already. 

Mollock has a lot of things that need some improvement, which is sad to say because of how good a troll hero could be.  The best Example of this is Rogash in Rise of the Witch King.  With only 3 abilities, he is able the best one of the best Mass Slayers in that game to do his High Damage, large AoE attack, High Armour, High Health, and extremely effective last 2 abilities.  Now obviously I think making Mollock that good would be too much, but Mollock needs a lot of boosts to stats right now.  He loses to cave troll lairs at level 1 if he is attacked first.  That's a pretty serious problem.
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Jan 2016, 15:56 von Hamanathnath »

Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #34 am: 6. Jan 2016, 22:24 »
Heroes should still be able to deal decent damage against trolls, but right now even level 1 scout heroes can take a troll down fairly easily. Trolls should be weak to pikes and heroes, not arrows, pikes, heroes and pretty much everything else, as they are currently. Arrows shouldn't even hurt them unless their upgraded, the trolls thick skin would block the arrows.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

CragLord

  • Gast
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #35 am: 6. Jan 2016, 22:41 »
I agree with you Elite about current "troll" situation.
Only I don't agree about arrow damage.
I think arrow damage should me moderate to this unit, not high, but moderate is ok in mu opinion.
If troll is upgraded with armor, then arrow damages should be reduced because of consistency terms, but if troll isn't upgraded with battle armor, I think arrows should deal decent damage to it.

Regards,
CragLord

Melkor Bauglir

  • Bündnisgenosse der Elben und Menschen
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.195
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #36 am: 6. Jan 2016, 22:45 »
I totally agree that trolls should be buffed a bit, eventhough in my opinion one of their main problems is their godawful handling (already explained this thought and it's a quite long one so I won't repeat it). However I think that arrows should still be a weakness of trolls even of armored ones. The thing is if you play this unit with the according micro you can absolutely prevent them from running into pikes and getting crush-revenged for the most part (just press S directly after engaging enemies)-after that every infantry unit without knockback resistance can't attack, because it's continuesly knocked down. This isn't much of a problem as long as there are only a couple of trolls, but it becomes a total deathball after they exceed a certain number, because melee infantry is just not able to attack any more (even if it won't die directly -they just can't counterattack).
Therefore they should still be sort of vulnerable against arrows, the only thing they are massively to weak against are building-arrows.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Hamanathnath

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gefährte der Gemeinschaft
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 409
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #37 am: 6. Jan 2016, 23:20 »
I agree with CragLord, arrow damage against an Not Upgraded Troll shouldn't be nonexistent.  Basic Archers should be able to do small damage, while Elite Archers deal medium damage.  When the troll is upgraded, however, I think normal arrow damage against it should be very small, to be consistent with Heavy Armour.   You should have to use Upgraded Arrows do deal more damage to the upgraded ones with your archers.

I don't think this would make Mountain Trolls too good.  Heroes still do a lot of damage to them, which also should be lowered in my opinion, but not that much, I just think the weaker heroes shouldn't as good as they are on them, and stronger heroes shouldn't completely wreck Upgraded Trolls in 2 or so hits. 

Does anyone think that the Mountain Trolls should keep the ability to trample?  I really don't see anyone ever use a troll to trample enemies, and it usually just gets trolls insta-killed by pikes, but maybe I'm wrong and people like it.

I still think that with the buffs, Trolls should have a price increase.  800 or 900 would be fine. 

Odysseus

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 714
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #38 am: 6. Jan 2016, 23:32 »
I'd go for 700 rather. 800-900  makes them closer to Ents. I doubt that's needed. They are already quite an investment. I do agree that they are a bit too vulnerable to crush revenge damage done by pikes, because of their weird method of trampling.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Hamanathnath

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gefährte der Gemeinschaft
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 409
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #39 am: 6. Jan 2016, 23:40 »
I'd go for 700 rather. 800-900  makes them closer to Ents. I doubt that's needed. They are already quite an investment. I do agree that they are a bit too vulnerable to crush revenge damage done by pikes, because of their weird method of trampling.
I would agree with you on the price, but remember that the price of Trolls can be reduced by Slaughter Houses, while the price of Ents can't change as far as I'm aware.  I would also like to see people use Slaughter Houses more often. 

Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #40 am: 6. Jan 2016, 23:55 »
The thing is, they aren't worth their current price due to how weak they are. I wouldn't give them a price increase at all, even with a full slaughterhouse discount your still paying over 400 per troll, plus upgrades. Also I'm for removing trample, its more of a liability than an asset.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Lord of Mordor

  • Administrator
  • Bewahrer des roten Buches
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 15.176
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #41 am: 7. Jan 2016, 00:33 »
We don't want to increase their base price because they still have several expensive upgrades and not all monsters should have to be highly costed. I'd prefer finding a strength level that fits their current price of 600.

The trample is a matter of realism - I think it would look very strange if you could actually box a troll in with swordsmen and he couldn't walk over them to get out. I kinda like that you have to maneuver your trolls carefully around pikemen, but they should actually be strong enough to justify the effort. How much do you think their damage and armor should be increased, and against which enemy types?

Decreasing Orc damage sounds like a good idea. As others have said, the free Orcs are meant to be mainly a damage sponge while you deal damage through other means (or weaken your enemies enough that the Orcs can take care of them, but they shouldn't be able to do that without support).
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Richtlinien für Edain-Vorschläge
I Edain Suggestion Guidelines

Melkor Bauglir

  • Bündnisgenosse der Elben und Menschen
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.195
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #42 am: 7. Jan 2016, 00:54 »
Zitat
The trample is a matter of realism - I think it would look very strange if you could actually box a troll in with swordsmen and he couldn't walk over them to get out.
I have to agree on that. Also, this is something that seperates someone with good from someone with bad troll-micro: The bad one will just charge into the enemy troops and losing 30-100% of the trolls' HP before standing still and attacking. The one's with good micro will just charge to the enemy, hit "S" before trampling pikes and use their knockdown attacks which are both way stronger and safer than trampling foes. (This actually makes them sort of viable against pikes because especially trolls with a mace have quite a huge AOE -and knocked-down pikes can't attack!)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Odysseus

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 714
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #43 am: 7. Jan 2016, 01:20 »
The Lord of Gifts has spoken :D.

I agree so far with what has been said about the trolls. I suppose lowering damage from turrets a bit, and I guess reducing trample damage a bit, might be something to consider. Otherwise, a troll can do quite a number on a lone, low-level hero. They are close to being quite good for their 600 price tag.

Looking forward to nerfing the default orcs. That's gonna give other factions a bit more room to breathe against Mordor.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Elite KryPtik

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #44 am: 7. Jan 2016, 01:40 »
I disagree with nerfing orcs. A good palyer can already shut down Mordor extremely easily in the EG, nerfing orcs just makes it easier.

Trolls should be very strong vs swordsmen and cavalry, but take moderate damage from archers and heavy damage from pikes and heroes. They also could use a health buff of say 15%. Their resistance against building arrows should also be higher, a single battle tower can kill a troll easily right now.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!