[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Mordor Suggestions

Mordor Balance Discussion

<< < (15/41) > >>

Odysseus:
I refrained myself from replying yesterday, because I wanted to wait and see what someone else had to say. Now that Django replied, and I completely agree with him, I can as well.

Both games were basically a repetition. The Mordor player made quite a couple of mistakes, but I won't really get into that. The employed strat is a strategy that relies on the traitors to do damage. Since you got 2 traitors each time, instead of the supposed 1, we are discussing a strategy based on a bug. Basically, the point is moot. Also, this strategy is instantly shutdown by turrets. Mordor can easily afford turrets, but I have no idea why Sawman did not get any in both games, as Django said. Mordor floated in both games early on.

Still, in that first head-on engagement in the first match, near the Cirith Ungol Barracks, you nearly lost gamling, lost Merry and all your peasants to default orcs and Gorbag. Your peasants even had leadership from Corrupted Theoden. Translated into resources on the field, that's this: (Mordor) 200 versus (Rohan) 1000+800+ 150 + all the peasants. If he had gone for a Nazgul, instead of using the Gondor strategy of ''spamming'' resource structures in the base as quickly as possible (instead of those two Tribute Camps of 800) Gamling would have died, and be unabled to be revived and it would have been GG.

I stopped watching there because the game was already lost for Mordor. Same thing with the second game.

The thing about Mordor orcs is that can they literally gangbang a unit with their numbers, and since they have decent attack speed, the damage pours in. It is as DJANGO says, if Mordor does reach its full potential Rohan will probably lose. However, I don't think it's because Rohan lacks late-game options, but rather that it is already decided early on, in terms of economics and performance. If a peasant squad kills an orc squad only to be killed by a second one, it is still a win for Mordor, since Mordor didn't pay anything for those orcs apart from time. Then slowly, the snowball effect that is Mordor kicks in. In a war of attrition, Mordor always wins. Even avoiding engagements with Mordor is a war of attrition since you are giving your opponent time.

Orcs are free. FREE! Their only benefit should be that they clog the land, kill some default creeps, buy time and cause lag to annoy your opponent, and nothing else. There is currently little to no point in getting these Overseers since default orcs already do well enough on their own.

You are an experienced player Kryptik, surely you know that comparing expenses from both sides is pivotal. I don't know Sawman, and I wont' judge him, but there is a distinction between both your levels of play. It can simply be observed. You know this too :P.

Still, I wanted to thank you for the replays. You went out of your way to do that for us and you made my conviction about Mordor being too awesome even stronger. Totally cool haha.

Hamanathnath:
Just to be clear, Theoden's traitor ability working on 2 peasants is not a bug.  It was originally supposed to work on only one, but it wouldn't work right, so instead they added a timer on the traitors.  I have a lot more to say, but not the time to do it, so expect a post later. ;)

Hamanathnath:
Sorry for the 2 posts in a row, just this one will be longer and I didn't want to make a huge edit to my last one.

First Odysseus, before you comment on what happens in a replay, I would recommend actually watching the entire replay.  From what I could tell by what you said, you stopped watching after you saw a actually fight between Orcs and Peasants.  And after that, you stopped because Mordor somehow "Already Lost", despite the game going on for another 40 mins or so.  Again, watching the entire replay before commenting would be a great idea.

Second, it is much easier to see a mistake when you are watching the game and not actually playing it.  Making mistakes is part of being human.  Plus, idk how Turrents would help your argument on Orcs being too strong.  Yes, Sawman should have got Turrents, but what does it prove if Turrents kill the enemy instead of the Orcs?

Thirdly, You say that spamming orcs makes the game "already decided early on."  If this is true, then shouldn't Mordor win every game they play because of Orc spam (assuming the players are equally skilled)?  Orcs have obvious counters.  And Kry got map control by just using Peasants, Theoden, and Gamling (with Theodred and Cavalry coming at the end).  And Peasants aren't much better then orcs, plus you need to pay for them. 

I just don't see how Orcs are considered too strong.  Later in the match a good mob of them took a long time just to break a Theodred Tower.  I don't see why their damage needs a nerf.

No offense of course Odyssues, just defending my point. :)

Elite KryPtik:
Haman pretty much nailed the points. Please watch the entire replays before saying a game is won or lost. Using Traitors on multiple peasants was originally a bug, when the traitors were permanent conversion, but a timer was added as the "fix" for the bug, so therefore it is now a legitimate method. You can't honestly tell me that you've never made a mistake playing, and since Sawman's play was overall quite good, with only minor mistakes here and there that had no relevance to the point, they shouldn't count. In regards to the turrets, if he had made those, that's 150 wasted on something that won't be useful again for a ling time, and in addition I would simply have immediately switched targets to kill the turrets, so that's a moot point.

In terms of comparing costs, it does not matter if Mordor wins economically if they don't HAVE a freaking economy. By taking as much map control as I did with just peasants and traitors(just peasants with Théoden leadership is impossible, and would be a total waste of time to try and do) I proved that just spamming Mordor orcs early game is not enough, and that they DO need help to make any progress. That's the exact point you have been arguing, is that orcs should only serve as a meatshield, and that currently with nothing but orcs you can win a match, which has been proven false. May I refer to a previous replay, posted by Django, the title of which is "OnlyOrcsStillEnough"? In that game, the Rohan players skill was so bad that It bears mentioning. He still had empty build plots inside his base 20 mins into the freaking game, which Sawman did not have.

I will agree that the 2nd game is not as close of a match for 3 very good reasons.
1: Sawman absolutely hates playing as Mordor, and was doing this as a favor for me. Playing twice in a row as a faction you hate can wear on your desire to play your best.
2: Sawman additionally hates playing on Fords of Isen 2, because he is sick and tired of it from all the games everybody always plays on it.
Finally 3: Due to Fords of Isen being so much smaller than Forlindon, it favors the Rohan player much more. You have to cross the entire map on Forlindon to engage the enemy, while on Fords of Isen I could easily harass and engage at multiple points.

I said when I first posted that Sawman was not quite as good as me, and I also very clearly said my play at the beginning was totally horrible in the first match(nearly losing Gamling/Merry). That almost never happens to me, for some reason the I just could not see Gorbag in the middle of the orcs and trees, which is why I withdrew. If I had been able to see Gorbag I would have killed him in seconds with Gamlings extremely high damage due to banishment, and won that fight, gaining map control even faster. To sum it up: Gorbag will never EVER kill Gamling if the player knows how to micro, that was a minor mistake on my part, and the only one that I made. Additionally, if he had rushed a nazgul, I would have simply focused the Nazgul down with Gamlings insanely high damage. If you had watched just a brief while longer into the match instead of turning it off after 5 mins, you would have seen that Sawman does indeed get 2 Nazgul, and that my heroes with Banishment totally wreck them.

Orc spam is currently Mordors only method of staying alive in the early game. If orc damage was nerfed, think about what I would have been able to accomplish. Additionally, if a player skips the peasant spam entirely and rushes straight for cavalry, what then is a Mordor player to do? Orc pikes are freaking terrible, and I'm not joking when I say they lose to Rohirrim of the Eastfold. The free orcs are absolutely necessary to supplement the orc pikes in damage and numbers and to soak up cavalry charges in this situation.

Finally, I am willing to get replays of all other factions to prove that orc spam is not unbeatable as any faction. If you will not accept Sawman as a player, then I'm sure Haman can fill his boots. I personally think Sawman is a perfect representation of a slightly above average player. Not everybody is as good as Skeever, Woppader, Draco and myself. If I came off as rude at any point in this reply, forgive me. It just seems to me like you are all ganging up on things that are not relevant to the point, which frustrates me.

-DJANGO-:

--- Zitat ---Finally, I am willing to get replays of all other factions to prove that orc spam is not unbeatable as any faction.
--- Ende Zitat ---
No Thank You!  :D :D  :D
doesn't come "myself" at first?  [ugly]

Navigation

[0] Themen-Index

[#] Nächste Seite

[*] Vorherige Sete