[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions
Dwarven Balance Discussion
Odysseus:
I thought it would be quite nice to maintain their support centered role, instead of your typical cavalry charge-linebreaker unit. The cavalry of the other factions mostly do the same thing, however the BattleWagon is quite unique thanks to that role. Also, it has fantastic trample, so if you catch a group of archers unaware, they are probably done for.
I think they are fine if you use them as support, in that sense, they could even be cheaper, but then they become quite spammable. Truly, Dwarves don't break the line, other factions try to break theirs :P.
CragLord:
--- Zitat von: Lord of Mordor am 13. Nov 2015, 00:20 ---I wouldn't mind buffing battlewagons a bit and making them more expensive. I agree they're better as heavier units that don't need to be spammed in large quantities to be effective.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I support this. There is problem with swordsmen for sure, they get maybe to much damage from these kind of units (melee except pikes). I don't have experience in balance problems, so I don't know what to suggest in this situation (armor against melee units except pikes if this is possible?).
--- Zitat von: Odysseus am 13. Nov 2015, 06:38 ---I thought it would be quite nice to maintain their support centered role, instead of your typical cavalry charge-linebreaker unit. The cavalry of the other factions mostly do the same thing, however the BattleWagon is quite unique thanks to that role. Also, it has fantastic trample, so if you catch a group of archers unaware, they are probably done for.
I think they are fine if you use them as support, in that sense, they could even be cheaper, but then they become quite spammable.
--- Ende Zitat ---
First, you can always play them as support unit, no matter what changes they get in future. Simply upgrade them with supportive upgrades and keep them at side to support units. It is simple and no matter what change they get. Battle wagon was and will be always unique because of its multiple role system, but no one here is discussing about removing supportive upgrades for battle wagon, we are discussing about buffing him a bit and buff its cost which is reasonable. I simply can't imagine heavy machine which is used only for staying in place and heal or buff armor and damage of units. Heavy War Chariots in history (which is some equivalent of battle wagon in game) have always used for mainly one purpose, destroying enemy formation and slaughter of enemies with wheel spikes, not to be supportive unit in general case.
Simply it is out of place to make heavy machine as current battle wagon to be just support unit.
And you can't even use them properly against archers if you are playing against some experience player, because they are always protected with pikes. So mainly you should be able to use them for swordsmen trample and in current game, battle wagons are also weak. Swordsmen deal good amount of damage to them.
Also concerning your suggestion to make them cheaper, I really don't understand why you suggested that. In my opinion it will ruin concept of battle wagon for sure.
Again I must underline it is heavy machine used for offensive purposes, with possibility of supportive usage, not is versa way!
--- Zitat ---Truly, Dwarves don't break the line, other factions try to break theirs :P.
--- Ende Zitat ---
That is maybe your experience from other dwarven games, in this game, dwarves are offensive as hell if you know how to play them. There will be always some defensive concept about dwarves (because of their way of living, place where they live etc), but simply if you call your suggestion of making battle wagons cheaper and more as spamming support unit on this defensive concept, I would say it is totally out of place in my opinion, and it will ruin nature of battle wagon for sure.
Regards
Elite KryPtik:
--- Zitat von: CragLord am 13. Nov 2015, 14:19 --- Battle wagon was and will be always unique because of its multiple role system, but no one here is discussing about removing supportive upgrades for battle wagon, we are discussing about buffing him a bit and buff its cost which is reasonable.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Careful Crag, just because nobody is discussing it now doesn't mean nobody will. This is the balance discussion thread, and that may come up in the future.
Anyways I personally do not agree with buffing the battlewagon as it is right now, only if the war chariots idea from the other thread is implemented. I believe that if the battlewagons are buffed that people will start using them as a primary unit, which makes no sense for Dwarves, they are not a cavalry faction. I have no problems with their current strength, and I only ever use 1 or 2 of them to give a mobile heal and leadership anyways. The Infantry are, and should be, superior.
CragLord:
--- Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Nov 2015, 19:27 ---Careful Crag, just because nobody is discussing it now doesn't mean nobody will. This is the balance discussion thread, and that may come up in the future.
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I know Elite, sometimes my choleric side give me few problems in communication.
In general that was caused with current situation. I really don't like current usage wagonas as primary support unit. I tried to explain best I could above. That's all, and I hope you understand me. If I sound in bad way, believe me it is not my intention.
--- Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Nov 2015, 19:27 ---Anyways I personally do not agree with buffing the battlewagon as it is right now, only if the war chariots idea from the other thread is implemented. I believe that if the battlewagons are buffed that people will start using them as a primary unit, which makes no sense for Dwarves, they are not a cavalry faction. I have no problems with their current strength, and I only ever use 1 or 2 of them to give a mobile heal and leadership anyways. The Infantry are, and should be, superior.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I also would like to discuss about this matter in more serious way if WarChariot suggestion get implemented. Again I don't have so much experience in solving balance problems, but I would like to see them buffed a bit so I could use them in proper way when we speak about breaking of swordsmen lines or similar melee units except pikes. And as player I always try to play with infrantry at first place, but wagons and other siege weapon is some kind of backup. Simply if they get buffed, I would still use couple of them for support usage, but difference will be in usage of few of them in offensive purposes, but I presonally won't spam them as "crazy". :) For others I don't know, probably you are right in some way. And as I said, it is so odd, if we just use this siege heavy macine for supporting and not in offence (of course we could, but personally I need much better micro for that). I would like if that is gona change somehow.
Regards
Odysseus:
Basically, what Kryptik said is what I meant.
It's arguably the safest and most effective way to use them at the moment. I don't mind if it is to be changed in the future, however, I was just stating that I actually enjoy it as a mobile support platform instead of your typical trample unit, retreat and repeat. Support is always stronger than straight up offense, especially with the new 20% health reduced patch, but also when in the correct hands, I say. Making it a bit sturdier to trample swordsmen should be okay, but as long as it isn't overdone. That is all.
Technically, they could add war chariots for dwarves, but I feel it would be contradictory to the team's vision and design for the dwarves. The less cavalry, the better. In fact, it might just be so that the Battlewagon was also kept as an icon, like Gandalf's abilities to stay untouched, but I could be wrong here.
I don't really see why they should be added and what they have to offer for the Dwarves playstyle and design. Even if they were to be added, it should be in some exclusive form like a Spellbook power or a hero summon, or perhaps some kind of additional upgrade to the Battlewagon that would transform it into a war chariot, but I see most places to be filled already and it would steer away from the main concept of the Dwarves.
Oh and +1 to KryPtik.
Greetings.
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