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Dwarven Balance Discussion

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Adrigabbro:
I've ran some tests earlier. Damn you are right, those guys do quite a lot of damage! :D

Draco100000:

--- Zitat von: Odysseus am  6. Dez 2015, 01:52 ---Good day,

Before I start a seperate thread about this, I wanted to gather some opinions here first. I wanted to talk about the Dragon Slayer of the Iron Hills and its current performance and implementation.

After having done a few quick direct tests in WB and in skirmish, I noticed a few things:

1. The single target damage of the Dragon Slayer's sword is gargantuan. I think it can tear down an average resource structure without upgrades in 4-5 hits. This is something no other hero (that I am aware of) can do, not even the dedicated anti-building ones. Do you think the performance of the Dragon Slayer is currently justified? Is he too strong? Too weak? Would love to hear a bit about this.

2. So far, most Dragons in the past BFME renditions have been flying units, apart from that old Isengard dragon PP spell if I recall correctly. How exactly will a full melee Dragon Slayer actually slay a flying dragon in the future? Is there any information about this? This one is a little off-topic perhaps, but I wanted to put it out there anyway.

3. You can build multiple Dragon Slayers which if all equipped with a sword, can take down a camp in a short amount of time. On top of that, he isn't expensive, only 600. The Hunters are more expensive than a conceptually designed hero (unit). Although they are of course weaker than true heroes, but their single sword damage is maybe just as high as the Witch King's Level 10 ability, perhaps even more with Forged Blades. So, a ''hero'' you can get multiple times sounds rather strange. Any thoughts?

4. What if we turned the Dragon Slayer into a real, full-fledged hero, specifically designed to deal with monsters, not just through sheer damage, but also via abilities? He would be similar to a CAH created hero. Would there be any animo for this?

I look forward to hearing your opinions!

Kind regards.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Agree with everything except with the fact that in future patches probably every single monster got by Misty mountains will be on terrain and not flying unit ( except lvl 4 small dragons who evolve in flyinig ones). Is suppose that dragonslayer will be able to kill any kind of monster not only dragons but also trolls, wargs, spiders and so on. The problem is that they make insane dmg to everything.

Odysseus:
Alright, I think it is time we discuss some Khazad-Dûm veterans. These guys, right here, are the definition of tanky. They can survive the army of the dead when levelled a bit, and if you can do that, you can just about survive anything. I watched a couple of replays and did some 1v1 tests with them in WB, and well, they are quite insane. What's worse is that there is no limit on them. All other factions have a limit on their heroic units, except Dwarves. Dwarves have the best infantry army in the game, so why exactly are these guys not limited? I am genuinely curious.

Also, I believe the veterans are easily the hardest heroic unit to defeat in straight combat. Pair that with the amazing support Dwarves have via their heroes and well, you get an (near) unstoppable juggernaut. I am quite aware that, to let it go that far in a game, is bringing it upon yourself, but as I had explained some months ago, all armies should have equal chances at winning in all stages of a game/match, incorporating their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Furthermore, in team games (Only concerned about 2v2 myself, but also applies to 3v3/4v4), this kind of stage is in my opinion inevitable, especially in higher level play games. The match will take long, and Dwarves will indubitably be able to field Khazad-Dûm veterans, if in the hands of at least a semi-competent player. Harassing becomes really hard after that as well, since you have to manage on multiple fronts.

What are your thoughts about them? Too strong? Too long to field? Too weak? Anything else?

I am writing a suggestion thread at the moment concerning the veterans, and I am looking forward to see your thoughts as well. I am not sure what tweaks will be given to them with their new design being introduced in 4.3, but I believe it is still worth discussing.

Furthermore, I wanted to ask what people think about the Dwarven Last Stand passive, besides the experience bug. Is 5 seconds okay? Too long? Too short?

In my opinion, it is slightly too long. I would make it 3 or 4 seconds. You see this a lot in MOBAs in fact. Fighting after death, especially on all units, is extremely powerful and useful. Especially in these MOBA games, which most have E-sport status mind you, these kind of passives or buffs only last a really short duration: 3-4 seconds on average.
You may ask yourself, ''but Odysseus, only 1-2 seconds? That will barely make a difference.'' At first perhaps, but it is just like the Uruk-hai Steelworks research buffs, which essentially are very small, but apply to each and every uruk-hai, except heroes. The same goes for the Dwarves, except they are naturally tankier. This creates a massive cumulative effect. I believe it could use a really small nerf.

Tell me what you think!

Kind regards.

Adrigabbro:
Interesting points! Before I start I would like to come back on what you said:

--- Zitat ---all armies should have equal chances at winning in all stages of a game/match, incorporating their own unique strengths and weaknesses.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I'm sorry but I don't exactly agree with you. I mean, of course every faction should have a chance of winning in all stages, but the very identity of a faction should be a fair enough argument of why some factions have to be stronger or weaker in some stages. For example Isengard is the "industry" faction: it takes some time to get going but once the wheels are definitely turning, you train Uruks on a production line. Therefore you can't expect to be as strong as Gondor or Rohan early in the game.

Moving on to the veterans: I do agree with you that they are in a very good spot at the moment (a little bit too good probably) but I also agree with Lord of Mordor's comment on moddb: they are already limited by time and I don't think any kind of additional limitation is necessary. However I believe there is a middle ground: in my experience you are able to field the map with veterans only if you get an expedition camp from the start. If not, you don't have (a lot of) ponies when you are able to train elite units and the enemy will often prevent you from getting more. That's why I think the right move is to increase the cost of the expedition camp (say 600?) to make it more economical harmful to build it/save a settlement spot for it.

Also, I'm sorry to be such a pissy but I disagree with your concern on Last Stand ability. This is one of the thing I like the most with dwarves: your units just won't fucking die. :D If you guys really think it is too strong, the team can nerf the duration from 5 to 4 seconds but not below. You can't really compare Edain with a MOBA whose gameplay is far more nervous.

By the way, completely off topic, concerning Mordor, I am waiting to get some more time to watch the second replay before I come back on the topic. Then I myself have two replays to show. :)

Elite KryPtik:
I think its interesting that you want 1 faction to remain overpowered and want to nerf another :P
In addition, looking at Isengard, they now have an extremely strong early AND late game, because of the Wildmen of Dunland, Bill Ferny and Wulfgar. The only faction that really lacks at any stage in the game right now is Rohan, who are very weak late game.

I agree that something needs to be done about Veterans. On maps where the player has a settlement protected behind or very near their base, its impossible to stop a dwarf player from spamming Veterans. If no limitation is to be put on their numbers, then the time it takes ponies to spawn should be increased by another 50%

I don't see any problem with Last Stand. I always found it to be rather weak personally. I also never understood why the team opted to weaken Beorn so terribly and make him 3 points, and make Last Stand a 7 point. I honestly do not think that its worth 7 points.

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