[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions
New Iron Hills Unique Siege Weapon
(Palland)Raschi:
--- Zitat ---PJ added Elves for the dramatic effect and to show that Elves actualyl take part in the War for the same reason he could have send Dwarves from Erebor there?
--- Ende Zitat ---
The reason is as Dunkler König has already mentioned, that there was not presented any Dwarves in the movie as a living and caring faction.
And by the way; Haldir himself tells the audience and Theoden King why PJ decided to Show them up at Helm's Deep:
"An Alliance once existed between Elves and Men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance"
Differently than in the Hobbit movies the developers tried to create a reference within the trilogy itself. The first great battle shown in the first movies is connected events and decisions. The motivation is logical and it is a good way the complete the character of Haldir appeared in the first movie as well. An negativ example in return would Beorns presentation in the Hobbit movies.
--- Zitat ---The dwarves had to arrive at the mountain very quickly, why should they bring these heavy ballistas? And why did they use them at all, they could have protected themselves with shields and armor.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Because they knew it is clone war time. Dain had foreseen that Thranduil's clone soldiers would shoot their arrows very porbably at the same time with the same angle and the most exact row you could build with elven clone eroopers. Therfore he could manage to place every ballista in the right distance to the elven army so that arrows and bolts would meet exactly in the air and do not miss each other.
In real wartime Dain just would have sent an ordinary army of dwarves and would not count on elven "clonish" behaviour.
Isengard needs a siege unit therfore their ballistas must do damage to buildings. And because of the fact that there is a good and logical reason for them beeing introduced in the LotR movie they are accepted by most players. The dwarven ballistas do not make any sense at all.
And that is a huge difference between Isengard and the Dwarves using ballistas in the movies.
OT Edit: It is quite annoying when there are introduced capital letters automatically by an auto correct programm instead of the correct small letters.
LordDainIronfoot:
--- Zitat von: ThorinsNemesis am 2. Nov 2015, 08:05 ---In any case, I don't think it would be a good idea if the balista is implemented without replacing the catapult, because then the balista will not be an unique siege weapon for the Iron Hills.
In my opinion the balista from BOTFA should replace the catapult of the Iron Hills; this will give more diversity to the Dwarves and give a chance to the Team to implement something unique for the Iron Hills :).
By the way, I have heard that Weta was planning to include in the EE Dwarven Crossbowmen, but I have never seen any pictures/concept art of them. If anyone has, can you post a picture of the Iron Hills crossbows by Weta?
--- Ende Zitat ---
I am absolutely fine iwth the Ballista replacing the Catapults and the Catapults as me and Melkor thought,can be used frothe Fortress Catapults so that we would not use the Unique Triple Catapult ofthe Iron Hills! :)
About the Crossbowmans,I have suggested long time ago that Iron HIlls should get Crossbwomasn because the Crossbow is more DMG oriented Rage Weapon and DMG is IHs Main Strentght while Ered Luin should get Short Bows because Bows are better in deffense esepcialyl siege for their bigger Ranger and Volley Effect,plus Thorin and Kili used Short Bows which suggested that Ered Luin values and usses Bows as their primary Range Weapon but the Team said they will not chnage them because they think this way is better!Well Ia am fine with,nothing we can about that,but if you want I can show you COncept Arts of the Crossbows WETA Designed,the Soldiers would have look like all the others from the Movie ,the Crossbows would have been rather Unique! :)
WETA called it the "boar-lista" because of its Boar Themed look and unique firing system!But after that they decided to use something more Unique which shows the Dwarven Skills in engeneering and created this Multiple Arrow Crossbows again with Boar Motive...
I doubt the Team will dcide to ever use them but here you can at least see thm if you haven't already! [ugly]
--- Zitat von: (Palland)Raschi am 2. Nov 2015, 08:48 ---
--- Zitat ---PJ added Elves for the dramatic effect and to show that Elves actualyl take part in the War for the same reason he could have send Dwarves from Erebor there?
--- Ende Zitat ---
The reason is as Dunkler König has already mentioned, that there was not presented any Dwarves in the movie as a living and caring faction.
And by the way; Haldir himself tells the audience and Theoden King why PJ decided to Show them up at Helm's Deep:
"An Alliance once existed between Elves and Men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance"
Differently than the Hobbit movies they the developers tried to create a reference within the trilogy itself. The first great battle shown in the first movies is connected events and decisions. The motivation is logical and it is a good way the complete the character of Haldir appeared in the first movie as well. An negativ example in return would Beorns presentation in the Hobbit movies.
--- Zitat ---The dwarves had to arrive at the mountain very quickly, why should they bring these heavy ballistas? And why did they use them at all, they could have protected themselves with shields and armor.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Because they knew it is clone war time. Dain had foreseen that Thranduil's clone soldiers would shoot their arrows very porbably at the same time with the same angle and the most exact row you could build with elven clone eroopers. Therfore he could manage to place every ballista in the right distance to the elven army so that arrows and bolts would meet exactly in the air and do not miss each other.
In real wartime Dain just would have sent an ordinary army of dwarves and would not count on elven "clonish" behaviour.
Isengard needs a siege unit therfore their ballistas must do damage to buildings. And because of the fact that there is a good and logical reason for them beeing introduced in the LotR movie they are accepted by most players. The dwarven ballistas do not make any sense at all.
And that is a huge difference between Isengard and the Dwarves using ballistas in the movies.
OT Edit: It is quite annoying when there are introduced capital letters automatically by an auto correct programm instead of the correct small letters.
--- Ende Zitat ---
It has nothign to do wit Dwarve not being loving and caring,as we saw Dwarves are one ofthe most loyal friends once you earth their respect!It is just that the Dwarves haven't been shown llike the Lorien Elves back then just as korner said!And Men of Dale and especialyl Erebor Dwarves had key Role in the win of the Free People agaisnt Sauton i nthe Battle of Dale! :)
While what you say is true about the "Last Alliance",PJ negelcted and didn't show the presence of big Khazad-Dum Dwarven Host led by Durin IV so yeah it is not only Men and Elves! :)
About the quick arrival,I think I ahve proved good enough evidence that the Dwarven Ballistas were Pullled by Animals or Chariots not pushed by Dwarves so yeah they weren't as slow as you think! :) And if Dain thought they coudl reach the Montain quick enough even with them then it is better to come prepared than not!NOt stationing the Ballista within Range is not unrealistic nor not possible he simply knows the range of his Artillery and positioned it so that Elven Army can be in Range from that Hill,Elves beign Clone has nothing to do with their Arrow Volleys,thats what a Arros Volley are all the Archers in range Fire their Arrows from same Angle around 40-45 degrees depending on where their Target is so that they could do more DMG and Firing the Ballist when they see the Volley Flying isn ot mere chance nor luck it is siple calibaration and observing and knowing your Machines! :)
As I said please guys let's stop hating the Movie,let's stop discussing things we alread ydiscussed long time and just talk about on how and where we can and should we intagrate the Iron Ballista WITHOUT the CHAINS!? :)
Greetings and best regards to all! :)
(Palland)Raschi:
--- Zitat ---While what you say is true about the "Last Alliance",PJ negelcted and didn't show the presence of big Khazad-Dum Dwarven Host led by Durin IV so yeah it is not only Men and Elves!
--- Ende Zitat ---
And he had a good reason to do so. It should be a movie for everyone not just for Lotr nerds who have read the books more than ten times.
A movie is not a book and a different form of presenting a story. You have relatively a short period of time to tell the audience what should be told. Therefore you need to make things compact, straight and reasonable for people who do not know the plot at all. The real art is to do so but also conveying the spirit and quintessence of the novel the movie is based on. There was no need to show dwarves and therefore there was not; that is all.
The dwarven ballista, elven clone arrow battle is senseless. There is nothing to justify this Scene at all.
If you had ever shoot an arrow you would realise that. You almost cannot see the arrow after releasing it. And at least not when beeing the one the arrow was shot at.
Even with headphones on the Dwarves would neither be able to shoot their bolts at the same time when the same (!) peak of the arrows is reached nor would it possible to position the ballistas without greater effort to cover every part at one line.
This scene is insanely accurate and therefore not feeling right or fitting. It is highly artificial and has nothing to do with the Tolkien world I like.
It is not about hating but about consistency and reasonability.
ThorinsNemesis:
Thanks for showing the crossbow concept art LordDain, the crossbows look fantastic! It's a shame that they weren't used in BOTFA :(.
Also, while I was playing the mod, I was thinking the same as you - it didn't seem fitting that Thorin and Kili used bows but Ered Luin got crossbows instead, crossbows should have been used by Iron Hills.
In any way, it's a pity that the Team won't use the crossbow design from Weta, it looks awesome :(
^^I don't see anything unrealistic in that scene, and I don't understand why most people say it's 'un-Tolkien'. I liked the balistas and I think it's a very plausible weapon.
LordDainIronfoot:
--- Zitat von: (Palland)Raschi am 2. Nov 2015, 09:43 ---
--- Zitat ---While what you say is true about the "Last Alliance",PJ negelcted and didn't show the presence of big Khazad-Dum Dwarven Host led by Durin IV so yeah it is not only Men and Elves!
--- Ende Zitat ---
And he had a good reason to do so. It should be a movie for everyone not just for Lotr nerds who have read the books more than ten times.
A movie is not a book and a different form of presenting a story. You have relatively a short period of time to tell the audience what should be told. Therefore you need to make things compact, straight and reasonable for people who do not know the plot at all. The real art is to do so but also conveying the spirit and quintessence of the novel the movie is based on. There was no need to show dwarves and therefore there was not; that is all.
The dwarven ballista, elven clone arrow battle is senseless. There is nothing to justify this Scene at all.
If you had ever shoot an arrow you would realise that. You almost cannot see the arrow after releasing it. And at least not when beeing the one the arrow was shot at.
Even with headphones on the Dwarves would neither be able to shoot their bolts at the same time when the same (!) peak of the arrows is reached nor would it possible to position the ballistas without greater effort to cover every part at one line.
This scene is insanely accurate and therefore not feeling right or fitting. It is highly artificial and has nothing to do with the Tolkien world I like.
It is not about hating but about consistency and reasonability.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Well when I was introduced to Middle Earth it wasn't trough the Books but it was the Movies,simply I have been a small child back then around 10 years old and I loved the Movies even though I didn't understand msot of them and I lvoed the Elves the most back then until after The Return of the King I got involved with the Books and found out mroe details and time by tiem Dwaerves become the appeal to me more thats all! I am well aware of why so many things are chanig or missing,I am not an idiot and I never dasi I have problem with thigs like Battles in Lorien,in Mirkwood,in Dale,Forts of Isen and etc missing,simply not enough Time and resourses!But in the Last Allince scenes he could have showed a glimpse of Dwarven Army jsut as he showed glmpses of Elves and Men but even so I have no problem with it,I just sated it as a fact thats all,no need to go on offensive Mode there! :)
--- Zitat von: ThorinsNemesis am 2. Nov 2015, 09:49 ---Thanks for showing the crossbow concept art LordDain, the crossbows look fantastic! It's a shame that they weren't used in BOTFA :(.
Also, while I was playing the mod, I was thinking the same as you - it didn't seem fitting that Thorin and Kili used bows but Ered Luin got crossbows instead, crossbows should have been used by Iron Hills.
In any way, it's a pity that the Team won't use the crossbow design from Weta, it looks awesome :(
^^I don't see anything unrealistic in that scene, and I don't understand why most people say it's 'un-Tolkien'. I liked the balistas and I think it's a very plausible weapon.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Same here mate,but there isn othign we can do! :) At least IHs have really good Archers in Edain and we should enjoy them! :)
Well because everyone has its own version Middle Earth and Tolkien's World and some are fine with some tihngs but with others not! :) For me let's say the Gundpowder thing in Isengard is not so MIddle Earth style but other people think it is absolutely fine! No point in arguing about that anymore my friend! :)
Navigation
[0] Themen-Index
[#] Nächste Seite
[*] Vorherige Sete
Zur normalen Ansicht wechseln