[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions

Iron Hills Hero Roles,some adjusments!?

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Melkor Bauglir:
Hmm, I probably agree, that IH could get one additional hero, for now they are really poor in that regard. However this guy should definitely not be anything resembling a power house on the battle field as IH as some extremly good replacements for their missing heroes (global nuking power, cavalry and stronger outpost units, especially the Dragonslayer sounds like some sort of mini-hero).
Therefore I'm not so sure if I like your proposal, LordDainIronfoot, because both diversifying AND adding a new hero to a faction which already has pretty good replacements for their missing heroes might be a bit too much.
Now to your ideas in specific:

--> Yourself (;)): I agree with you, that it's not really a coherent summon, because it breaks the time line of the Mod. Now, I don't specifically enjoy the idea of just a blademaster ability: I get your idea of showing he is also a great fighter, but firstly other such leaders / fighters (cough*Aragorn*cough) also are "reduced" to one of their roles and they are looking pretty good right now.
Therefore I would prefer such an idea as CragLord proposed, summoning the Dwarven Slayers (the Lord Dain, Ered Luin could buy in their inn, actually had this ability ;)). This ability could as well give him a little boost, if this is really needing (what I don't really think, tbh), like: "Dain Ironfoot calls for his best men to follow him into battle. Temporarily summon 2 bataillons of fully upgraded Dwarven Slayers. Dain and these troops get +30% attack for the next 10 seconds."

--> Thorin III. Stonehelm: I like the Mighty Stroke, sort of like Dain's Heir (mainly because attack speed modifiers don't really work on melee weapons, that's some strange issue with the game :(), but I don't like Stonehelm the least. Atm the only hero which a hero weakening aura is the Witchking of Mordor and this effect is far more suitable for the Leader of the Ringwraiths than for a dwarven prince. I suggest to not change this ablity at all, having a long lasting fighter is also really valuable against heroes.

--> Murin: This could be an intersting change, but than his damage has to be reduced severely. If he can just give himself +50% (!) armor from level two onwards this will just make him a brutal manfighter for his money. Is the level 8 ability currently the War Cry?

--> Drar: I don't like the amount of soldiers he can summon. Of course they are just a visual interface for his spells, but at least his flame arrows should stay -remember, he is currently the only archer hero in the entire game, who can sort of "upgrade" his basic attacks!

--> Narin: Well, I can understand the reasoning of adding a hero in the first place, but Narin is not ready yet! ;) First of all, he should only be a very weak hero (as I said: IH has really strong substitutions for their missing heroes!), I am beginning to think if he should even have access to like level 10 or full 4 spells.
Also his current abilities sound disgustingly strong if used in conjunction with other dwarven heroes... Messenger of Dain would just counter a basic weakness of dwarven heroes (them being slow), also it sort of destroys the enemy for ever being surprised by Narin: Imagine you recruiting all heroes than suddenly adding Narin and start a fight with Messenger active. The enemy couldn't escape or at least it would be harder for him to do so and he gets punished even harder for feeding away XP which then gets amplyfied! This ability should just be changed from the beginning, IMO dwarvens don't need that strong hero support because they got Mithril.
Threat of War is a similar story: +50% attack damage and +30% attack speed (which is again not really possibly to do) is ludicrously strong, this spell alone makes this guy pretty broken. I can not imagine any heroes survive this onslaught, this spell is certainly a lot stronger then the final powers of the other dwarven realms. (Which would be double unfair: IH has good replacement for their missing heroes and also a stronger hero?)
Also, I am not content with the Diplomatic Immunity. Grima Wormtongue already has pretty much this ability (Anatar works differently IMO, as it doesn't allow for a quick escape) and I don't think its such an innovative idea to include it again for dwarves. ;)

So, in conclusion: I am kind of divided on your ideas. Some are great, others have potential, others need a lot of work to be ready! ;)


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: One quick reminder, because you have to keep this in mind: Attack modifiers (like +50% damage) stack multiplicative! This means that multiple modifiers can result in crazy and totally unintended boni (like the +75% attack damage in Dain's possible level 10 ability combined with Narin's +50% attack damage would result in a whopping +225% attack damage, which is obviously trough the roof! [ugly] Just wanted to remind you of this. (BTW: This is not the same for armor buffs, they stack additively.)

CragLord:
I think that Diplomatic immunity is similar like Grima's ability, but you can see all time Narin while for instance Grima is invisible. Diplomatic Immunity could be used in enemy base for scouting, and Grima could use his ability anywhere.
So it is pretty different in same time. :)

LordDainIronfoot:
Hello my friend I am glad you like the Thread there is one more coming! ;) And I am happy to see your feedback on the matter! :-)

About Dain,well I (at least I think I was) was the first that suggested for his LV 10 to Summon 4-5 Battalions if Iron Hills Slayers because they are like 95% accurate representation of the 500 Veterans from the Book which Dain brought to Erebor and it is not fitting to have an unlimited number of Veterans!?But the idea was rejected sadly,my Point is that I like and agree Dain getting a better Summon but since all suggestions for that the Slayers,The Iron Guard and etc. were rejected I thought it will be nice if we actually show gow Skilful and Experienced Warrior Dain really is! :-) And I know and agree that to be part Mass Slayer he needs Knockback and Area DMG or at least one of them and thets why I created the "Lord Dain Boost" Thread to give him one of them as a proof of his Physical Strength as a Dwarf in his Prime and one of the Best Warriors and also to show his Leader Status but no answer there from the Team but I am sure they are aware of it and will think about ot! :-)
So I actually may prefer better to show some of the Great Warrior Dain than thr Great Leader Dain! :-)

Murin yeah I think the same as you and am glad you support my idea! :-)

Thorin III of course will keep his Runes I love them! :-)

About Drar ,well since the Ballistas are still in discussion I decided to give him Catapults which I like more and yeah they will get the DMG of the Current Ability but only will look more logical! :-) Plus I personally prefer Ballista as a Recruitable Siege Unit but I am fine with being a Summon too! :-)

Narin happy you like him but since Iron Hills already has the unique Ram Scout/Cavalry I think Narin can't be a Scout and should get the Hero Supporter Role if Thorin III becomes Hero Killer and yea I like Fredius idea but if Narin is going to be Hero Supporter that ability will not fit unless it conceals some other Hero rather than Narin himself! :-)

Greetings! :-)

P.S. I am at work and already had written this reply so I apologize to Melkor and I will answer him specifically later this night! :-) I am sorry for this! :-)

CragLord:

--- Zitat von: LordDainIronfoot am  5. Nov 2015, 20:39 ---Hello my friend I am glad you like the Thread there is one more coming! ;) And I am happy to see your feedback on the matter! :-)

About Dain,well I (at least I think I was) was the first that suggested for his LV 10 to Summon 4-5 Battalions if Iron Hills Slayers because they are like 95% accurate representation of the 500 Veterans from the Book which Dain brought to Erebor and it is not fitting to have an unlimited number of Veterans!?But the idea was rejected sadly,my Point is that I like and agree Dain getting a better Summon but since all suggestions for that the Slayers,The Iron Guard and etc. were rejected I thought it will be nice if we actually show gow Skilful and Experienced Warrior Dain really is! :-) And I know and agree that to be part Mass Slayer he needs Knockback and Area DMG or at least one of them and thets why I created the "Lord Dain Boost" Thread to give him one of them as a proof of his Physical Strength as a Dwarf in his Prime and one of the Best Warriors and also to show his Leader Status but no answer there from the Team but I am sure they are aware of it and will think about ot! :-)
So I actually may prefer better to show some of the Great Warrior Dain than thr Great Leader Dain! :-)

Murin yeah I think the same as you and am glad you support my idea! :-)

Thorin III of course will keep his Runes I love them! :-)

About Drar ,well since the Ballistas are still in discussion I decided to give him Catapults which I like more and yeah they will get the DMG of the Current Ability but only will look more logical! :-) Plus I personally prefer Ballista as a Recruitable Siege Unit but I am fine with being a Summon too! :-)

Narin happy you like him but since Iron Hills already has the unique Ram Scout/Cavalry I think Narin can't be a Scout and should get the Hero Supporter Role if Thorin III becomes Hero Killer and yea I like Fredius idea but if Narin is going to be Hero Supporter that ability will not fit unless it conceals some other Hero rather than Narin himself! :-)

Greetings! :-)

P.S. I am at work and already had written this reply so I apologize to Melkor and I will answer him specifically later this night! :-) I am sorry for this! :-)

--- Ende Zitat ---
Thanks Dain. :)

Yes, I am still for that integration in this game, simply it is the most fitting proposal so far, and only personal preferences are stopping it, not lore or any other logical reasons. :) But I really can't see anything else for level 10 ability more fitting then those veterans...
Concerning your proposal, adding that buffing ability could work but I think only with AOE effect. :) So, I hope you will have success in your "Lord Dain Boost" thread.

Concerning Drar, it is good idea, but it depends if balista is going to be implemented and how it will be implemented. xD

Narin, ok, I forgot about ram scouting, it is good idea for this hero to be hero supporter. I like it for now, and support it.

Regards
 

LordDainIronfoot:

--- Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am  5. Nov 2015, 20:15 ---Hmm, I probably agree, that IH could get one additional hero, for now they are really poor in that regard. However this guy should definitely not be anything resembling a power house on the battle field as IH as some extremly good replacements for their missing heroes (global nuking power, cavalry and stronger outpost units, especially the Dragonslayer sounds like some sort of mini-hero).
Therefore I'm not so sure if I like your proposal, LordDainIronfoot, because both diversifying AND adding a new hero to a faction which already has pretty good replacements for their missing heroes might be a bit too much.
Now to your ideas in specific:

--> Yourself (;)): I agree with you, that it's not really a coherent summon, because it breaks the time line of the Mod. Now, I don't specifically enjoy the idea of just a blademaster ability: I get your idea of showing he is also a great fighter, but firstly other such leaders / fighters (cough*Aragorn*cough) also are "reduced" to one of their roles and they are looking pretty good right now.
Therefore I would prefer such an idea as CragLord proposed, summoning the Dwarven Slayers (the Lord Dain, Ered Luin could buy in their inn, actually had this ability ;)). This ability could as well give him a little boost, if this is really needing (what I don't really think, tbh), like: "Dain Ironfoot calls for his best men to follow him into battle. Temporarily summon 2 bataillons of fully upgraded Dwarven Slayers. Dain and these troops get +30% attack for the next 10 seconds."

--> Thorin III. Stonehelm: I like the Mighty Stroke, sort of like Dain's Heir (mainly because attack speed modifiers don't really work on melee weapons, that's some strange issue with the game :(), but I don't like Stonehelm the least. Atm the only hero which a hero weakening aura is the Witchking of Mordor and this effect is far more suitable for the Leader of the Ringwraiths than for a dwarven prince. I suggest to not change this ablity at all, having a long lasting fighter is also really valuable against heroes.

--> Murin: This could be an intersting change, but than his damage has to be reduced severely. If he can just give himself +50% (!) armor from level two onwards this will just make him a brutal manfighter for his money. Is the level 8 ability currently the War Cry?

--> Drar: I don't like the amount of soldiers he can summon. Of course they are just a visual interface for his spells, but at least his flame arrows should stay -remember, he is currently the only archer hero in the entire game, who can sort of "upgrade" his basic attacks!

--> Narin: Well, I can understand the reasoning of adding a hero in the first place, but Narin is not ready yet! ;) First of all, he should only be a very weak hero (as I said: IH has really strong substitutions for their missing heroes!), I am beginning to think if he should even have access to like level 10 or full 4 spells.
Also his current abilities sound disgustingly strong if used in conjunction with other dwarven heroes... Messenger of Dain would just counter a basic weakness of dwarven heroes (them being slow), also it sort of destroys the enemy for ever being surprised by Narin: Imagine you recruiting all heroes than suddenly adding Narin and start a fight with Messenger active. The enemy couldn't escape or at least it would be harder for him to do so and he gets punished even harder for feeding away XP which then gets amplyfied! This ability should just be changed from the beginning, IMO dwarvens don't need that strong hero support because they got Mithril.
Threat of War is a similar story: +50% attack damage and +30% attack speed (which is again not really possibly to do) is ludicrously strong, this spell alone makes this guy pretty broken. I can not imagine any heroes survive this onslaught, this spell is certainly a lot stronger then the final powers of the other dwarven realms. (Which would be double unfair: IH has good replacement for their missing heroes and also a stronger hero?)
Also, I am not content with the Diplomatic Immunity. Grima Wormtongue already has pretty much this ability (Anatar works differently IMO, as it doesn't allow for a quick escape) and I don't think its such an innovative idea to include it again for dwarves. ;)

So, in conclusion: I am kind of divided on your ideas. Some are great, others have potential, others need a lot of work to be ready! ;)


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: One quick reminder, because you have to keep this in mind: Attack modifiers (like +50% damage) stack multiplicative! This means that multiple modifiers can result in crazy and totally unintended boni (like the +75% attack damage in Dain's possible level 10 ability combined with Narin's +50% attack damage would result in a whopping +225% attack damage, which is obviously trough the roof! [ugly] Just wanted to remind you of this. (BTW: This is not the same for armor buffs, they stack additively.)

--- Ende Zitat ---
Firstly I want to thank you for the feedback! :-)

I agree about the Ram/Cavalry but about the Catapult I tend to disagree,because firstly I think we should test to see how Strong and Useful in DMG it really is before we can judge,but even so I think that a Catapult can't be so good Substitute for a Hero and because of that I think IHs needs at least 1 more Hero,otherwise they are at big disadvantage against Factions who has like 6-7 or even more Heroes! :-)

Now about Dain(me :P:) ! As it was I who thought about the Idea for Summoning Slayers as Book representation of the 500 Veterans I obviously agree with it and like it,and the addition you made I like even more! :-) So I have no problem with it being his LV 10 Summon! But if those Slayers become his Summon should they be an Elite Recruitable Unit or we need New One!? :-) About Aragorn well I get your point but even he has some minor Leadership=Small Unit Supporter Role! :-)

About Thorin III you think his last Ability may stay the same but the uou like the first Two!?Just asking to be sure! :-) Well I think he needs a little Different Effect for his Last Ability than the current because the it is more like Hero Supporter Ability than a Hero Killer! :-) You seem to understand better some mechanics and things I would be more than happy if you share some ideas about Abilities ! :-)

On Murin well we can reduce it to 25% what you think about that mate!? :-) And yes his current LV 8 Ability is "War Cry"! :-)

About Drar of course he will keep his "Fire Arrow"  Selr-Upgrade ,but if you do not like 3 Battalions may be we can make them 2,or you do not like the ability itself!? :-)

About Narin I am glad you like.the concept about him and I agree he is not ready thats why I hope the community will help make him a good Hero! :-)
Now that you mention a those things I really agree with you,as I said I am not so good with Abilities and thought of those Abilities at the moment I wrote the Thread in 00:00 after I got home from work  [uglybunti] [uglybunti]
How about those Narin abilities stay the same but with a significant nerf I mean lesser Buffs smaller percentage of buff,what do you think about that my friend!? :-)


--- Zitat von: CragLord am  5. Nov 2015, 21:19 ---
--- Zitat von: LordDainIronfoot am  5. Nov 2015, 20:39 ---Hello my friend I am glad you like the Thread there is one more coming! ;) And I am happy to see your feedback on the matter! :-)

About Dain,well I (at least I think I was) was the first that suggested for his LV 10 to Summon 4-5 Battalions if Iron Hills Slayers because they are like 95% accurate representation of the 500 Veterans from the Book which Dain brought to Erebor and it is not fitting to have an unlimited number of Veterans!?But the idea was rejected sadly,my Point is that I like and agree Dain getting a better Summon but since all suggestions for that the Slayers,The Iron Guard and etc. were rejected I thought it will be nice if we actually show gow Skilful and Experienced Warrior Dain really is! :-) And I know and agree that to be part Mass Slayer he needs Knockback and Area DMG or at least one of them and thets why I created the "Lord Dain Boost" Thread to give him one of them as a proof of his Physical Strength as a Dwarf in his Prime and one of the Best Warriors and also to show his Leader Status but no answer there from the Team but I am sure they are aware of it and will think about ot! :-)
So I actually may prefer better to show some of the Great Warrior Dain than thr Great Leader Dain! :-)

Murin yeah I think the same as you and am glad you support my idea! :-)

Thorin III of course will keep his Runes I love them! :-)

About Drar ,well since the Ballistas are still in discussion I decided to give him Catapults which I like more and yeah they will get the DMG of the Current Ability but only will look more logical! :-) Plus I personally prefer Ballista as a Recruitable Siege Unit but I am fine with being a Summon too! :-)

Narin happy you like him but since Iron Hills already has the unique Ram Scout/Cavalry I think Narin can't be a Scout and should get the Hero Supporter Role if Thorin III becomes Hero Killer and yea I like Fredius idea but if Narin is going to be Hero Supporter that ability will not fit unless it conceals some other Hero rather than Narin himself! :-)

Greetings! :-)

P.S. I am at work and already had written this reply so I apologize to Melkor and I will answer him specifically later this night! :-) I am sorry for this! :-)

--- Ende Zitat ---
Thanks Dain. :)

Yes, I am still for that integration in this game, simply it is the most fitting proposal so far, and only personal preferences are stopping it, not lore or any other logical reasons. :) But I really can't see anything else for level 10 ability more fitting then those veterans...
Concerning your proposal, adding that buffing ability could work but I think only with AOE effect. :) So, I hope you will have success in your "Lord Dain Boost" thread.

Concerning Drar, it is good idea, but it depends if balista is going to be implemented and how it will be implemented. xD

Narin, ok, I forgot about ram scouting, it is good idea for this hero to be hero supporter. I like it for now, and support it.

Regards
 

--- Ende Zitat ---
I too still support the Slayers Summon my.friend let's hope th e Team will like it and use it! :-) When I first thought about it I was eager to see it in game lets hope I will see that day ! :-)
About Dain Boost well for now it seems really dead thread with next to 0 chances of success! :-)

Yup about Drar we should wait for the Ballista Thread to resolve! :-)

About Narin glad to hear it but what you think of nerfing a little the Abilities I suggested!? :-)

Greetings to all and thank you for the feedback! :-)

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