[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Brief Lothlórien Suggestions

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The_Necromancer0:
I agree with making the Palace Guards into heroic units, although I would advise that their max numbers be pushed to 4-5 battalions max. However, I'm against the implementation of the standard spearmen.

If the Lorien Pikemen were to be removed this would leave Lorien wide open to cavalry, any faction would know to head straight for cavalry since it can be used to devastating effect on a faction that doesn't have access to pikes. The normal counter would be to move the mirkwood spearmen to the Castle/Camp citadel but that would break the nice harmony that Lorien has going. If I'm not mistaken, Lorien is meant to be weak to cavalry, so limiting the Palace Guards is logical, however allowing armored units to be recruited from the Lorien base would counter that weakness. And if the Spearman are to be implemented as an additional unit in the Mirkwood oupost they would just become superfloues since one or two battalions of Palace Guards are all that is need to scare your enemy out of the idea of getting cavalry. Just some of my thoughts.

Gandalf7000:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  7. Feb 2017, 17:33 ---Just to add to the flow of the discussion: even if Palace Guards are to hypothetically acquire the status of a heroic unit, the implementation of the regular lancers from BOTFA would probably give the faction too many means to counter cavalry, and that's something we ought to avoid.

Therefore, another alternative I personally envisaged could be the very removal of Lórien pikemen, the inclusion of Mirkwood lancers as the regular anti-cavalry unit of the faction and the considerable broadening of Palace Guards' role as iconic royal guards. Referring to the latter case, the new royal guard could consist of 5/10 units per battalion (with the maximum of three battalions permitted) and shall be given the possibility to toggle weapons; not only would they thus be made more relevant in the game (more unique), but their overall activity would have much wider spaces of action at hand. About the removal of Lórien pikemen, this is certainly a quite radical of a proposal, but there are some positive arguments which we may bring at the common attention.

First of all, I have no knowledge whether the lore gives clear information about this, I have personally never viewed those pikemen as something so much proper for Lothlórien (the specific faction); I feel their addition was more an obligated choice for balance-related reasons. In my own opinion, the legitimate core of Lothlórien's infantry/archery are the regular border guards from BFME2 and the versatile Galadhrim; that's the main conceptual focus. Following the above-mentioned suggestions, Mirkwood only will then have the hegemony of anti-cavalry countering, ending up being much more differentiated and with a broader role as a subfaction. Obviously, Lórien would consequently be subjected to many threats by riders in the early stage, yet that might be seen as a possible strategic risk in equal terms.

As an additional defence at the beginning of the game, we could consider the early-defence role that Woodsmen are endowed with according to Fredius' proposal. However, I'm perfectly conscious that all these ideas I hitherto addressed rely on very what-if premises and, most importantly, on a concept about which the Edain Team has not expressed itself yet. But I nonetheless wanted to create a common ground for a possible significant overhaul, and I hope we shall head thither.

--- Ende Zitat ---
That's also a possibility. So if the Lorien Pikemen are removed the player would need to have Mirkwood Outpost to better counter enemy cavalry - this also adds something to the strategy of how you play. I think that early cavalry rush wouldn't be much of a problem as Lorien citadel has guard archers that deal with most enemies coming in the castle.

kmogon:

--- Zitat von: The_Necromancer0 am  7. Feb 2017, 17:51 ---I agree with making the Palace Guards into heroic units, although I would advise that their max numbers be pushed to 4-5 battalions max. However, I'm against the implementation of the standard spearmen.

If the Lorien Pikemen were to be removed this would leave Lorien wide open to cavalry, any faction would know to head straight for cavalry since it can be used to devastating effect on a faction that doesn't have access to pikes. The normal counter would be to move the mirkwood spearmen to the Castle/Camp citadel but that would break the nice harmony that Lorien has going. If I'm not mistaken, Lorien is meant to be weak to cavalry, so limiting the Palace Guards is logical, however allowing armored units to be recruited from the Lorien base would counter that weakness. And if the Spearman are to be implemented as an additional unit in the Mirkwood oupost they would just become superfloues since one or two battalions of Palace Guards are all that is need to scare your enemy out of the idea of getting cavalry. Just some of my thoughts.

--- Ende Zitat ---

If we include suggestion about implementing woodmen pikes to beorings' homestead it would perfecly highlight lothrien weakness against cavalry - pikes would be harder to get than in other factions but not as hard as getting them only in outpost. Yes , this is very radically change but it probably help lothrien in balance meanings ( correctly: remove lothrien pikes , add woodmen warriors , add mirkwood pikes and change palace guard to heroic units ). I'm for this idea

Walküre:
Thank you all for the precious contributions. The simply replacement of Lórien pikemen and the transferring of the Mirkwood lancers to the main fortress are obviously not the goal of the proposal, as that would take us again to the starting point of the issue. Yes, the proposal should instead be considered in conjunction with Fredius' concept and with some other aspects we do have knowledge of  ;)

As others have already pointed out fairly, with the departure of Lórien pikemen (whom I personally find not so much conceptually fitting), Woodsmen and Beornings are to constitute the early defence at the beginning of the game; I don't think it's imperative that Woodsmen be necessarily pikemen, but I'm leaning more and more towards this perspective. They would obviously represent a lesser chance to counter immediate threats from cavalry. Also, what Fredius proposed entails the fact that Beornings will acquire a more prominent status, in line with their supernatural nature and thus granting players an additional possibility to defend themselves. Moreover, we ought to remember that Grimbeorn shall maybe receive the Axe of Doriath from Galadriel, strengthening his attack and the surrounding Skin-changers. Therefore, the whole Beorning Homestead is to be given a much more central role.

As additional remarks, we shouldn't also forget the support provided by minstrels, which defends from trampling too, and the sentinels of the camp/castle. Nor should we leave aside the prospect of Galadriel being capable of using the abilities of Ancient Might, which involve primarily monsters and heroes. On a final note, some of the arguments are based on pure assumptions, but these seem in my eyes to be favourable scopes for an equal redistribution of power in the overall faction, without disrupting Lothlórien's hegemonic status. The three main components of the faction will benefit from a higher degree of proper differentiation: Lothlórien (archery and versatile infantry), Mirkwood (heavier infantry and pikemen) and the People of the woods (early defence and Beornings). Like I already stated, only three battalions of Palace Guards shall be available (to avoid superfluous anti-cavalry proliferation) and have their role loosened, in the sense that they won't solely focus on cavalry anymore.

kmogon:
Och, it's beautifull how from simple "hey why palace guards can't be heroic units" can bring very interesting idea which can provide more balance to this unique faction. Of course there probably appear some people which disagree - especially those who don't like concept of increasing  humans' role  in this faction. But for me it's very promissing idea. Die Wülkirie, the only thing is to mix all of it ( including Fredius woodsmen ) and make pool for voting - the only problem that I see is that some of supporters of introducing woodsmen can be opposite to the rest of idea. Nethertheless   I'm for it ;)

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