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Autor Thema: Guards of Orthanc  (Gelesen 7647 mal)

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #15 am: 26. Dez 2016, 16:49 »
First of all, I completely agree with Odysseus on this topic: Isengard just doesn't need this unit.
I am however open to a temporary implementation and as such I really like the idea of them getting summoned by the citadel.

And I doubt that any Numenorans were left in Isengard: Before Saruman took over which was well before he turned to evil (he was just a regular, useless wizard), the dunlendings occupied the ring of Isengard, since it was left unguarded, and all in all there are hardly any real Numenoras left in ME. I guess, since they make such formidable villains (if evil) or formidable generic good guys (if good), they got kind of everywhere over the years of talking about ME.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Basically right, it's "Schlächter" (instead of Schlachter, but that might be, because these letters (ä, ö, ü) aren't used that often in Edain's code), and it means "butcher". Generally, Isengard used to have a lot more Dunlad units (Dunland Guardians (I think they are our unit) and the heroic unit, Dunland giant (not like mountain giant, but like a really big human. LEO translates this via "giant", their german name is "Hüne" for everyone interested. ;))
These units got replaced because they made progressing to new technology with Isengard basically pointless. (During that time, Isengard had a big upgrade, that unlocked all the orcish stuff (Uruk-Hai, siege, upgrades and better wargs).)

Walküre

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #16 am: 26. Dez 2016, 18:53 »
I am however open to a temporary implementation and as such I really like the idea of them getting summoned by the citadel.

That's what I thought too. One of the sole viable alternatives. This implementation matches greatly with their sentinel/guardian-like connotation.

Regarding Númenóreans, I was certainly not referring to 'pure' Númenóreans themselves, but rather people of a (remote or not) Númenórean ancestry. The White Wizard, if not loved by the people of Middle-earth, was always held in extremely high regard by Elves and Men in particular, who were fascinated by his wide-ranging knowledge on the most diverse matters. Also, before he was given the keys of Orthanc, Saruman had already been appointed as the chief of the White Council, with the authoritative leadership and bounden duty to safeguard the Free People from the Evil. His decision to take Isengard as a stable dwelling could be explained by his will to accomplish his tasks in more effective ways, having the time to collect precious information and gather servants (the fact of disposing of a dwelling/fortress is by itself a symbol of power and authority).

Tolkien Gateway too phrases his arrival in Isengard as a definitive pledge to command the defences of the West, in line with his role. In light of all these elements, I would say it could be well legitimate, were some Númenóreans (whether they descend from a great lineage or not) to serve Saruman and to guard his stronghold. I probably gave a different spin to your words, Melkor, yet I would never really name anything of Saruman as 'regular' or 'useless' anyway. Coming from a not so passionate estimator of Isengard as I am, I easily concede Saruman the acknowledgement of the said important qualities  ;)

Besides, I really like how the development of the thread has progressed. I think we can already propose Fredius' suggestions as an official concept. If you don't have any objection, I would thus proceed with editing the first post of the thread and inserting the final proposal. As with Grimbeorn's Axe, I might translate the concept in German as well, so that it will be presented in the German forum too; it's always desirable to have more back-up from the whole Community  :)

Walküre

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #17 am: 28. Dez 2016, 01:44 »
I updated the first post and inserted the official proposal of Fredius. Things should now be much clearer and easier to consult  ;)

Julio229

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #18 am: 28. Dez 2016, 01:53 »
Seeing that the For/Against poll has been added to the main post, I think I agree with Fredius' suggestion, so I'm for it!


Walküre

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #19 am: 28. Dez 2016, 02:05 »
Seeing that the For/Against poll has been added to the main post, I think I agree with Fredius' suggestion, so I'm for it!

Yes, I eventually opted for that typology of survey, which is quite customary in the German forum. I find it really useful for very defined concepts as this one and for insightful discussions; it in fact ensures the debate to progress and ideas to be put forward, along with ordering people's feedback. Polls serve well for wider and more comprehensive themes.

It's great to hear that you agree. I will add your name to the list  :)

DrHouse93

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #20 am: 28. Dez 2016, 08:51 »
I also agree with this idea. While a heroic unit isn't necessary, especially an human one in the middle of a crowd of Uruks, a temporary summon is a nice idea, and it would also slightly improve Isengard's poor defenses under siege

The Witch-King of Angmar

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #21 am: 28. Dez 2016, 09:25 »
I like how the suggestion is getting love i hope the german community and the team like it as well so we maybe get lucky and see this idea implemented in the coming siege patch

So my idea is you can get them by an upgrade from the citadel to have them standing around it and defending it and they will be uncontrolable just like how the goblins defend thier buildings or how the rangers defend their tents

Fredius i am sorry i will wait near your home with morgo blade tonight

Fredius

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #22 am: 28. Dez 2016, 12:51 »
Chief I honestly apologise, I mistakenly read over your post :/. Walkure I think the man should be credited for the idea as well ;).
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Dez 2016, 13:30 von Fredius »

Gandalf7000

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #23 am: 28. Dez 2016, 13:28 »
I agree with this proposal too.

Garlodur

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #24 am: 28. Dez 2016, 14:01 »
I wanted to contribute a little to the implementation of such units.

I agree that their link to the Tower of Orthanc justifies their position as defensive creep-like units. I was thinking that, since they wield spears, they could serve as an early-game counter to cavalry rushes (but if the Warg Sentries on defensive build plots are meant to have this advantage, this might be overkill). Still, if the ability to temporarily summon these units were  linked to the Wizard Tower, their usefullness would be restricted to mid and late game. At this point in every game castles and camps will be more often under siege and I always felt that Isengard's bases were very empty, left without defences so that enemies can just run inside the camp (an aspect that can be prevented in Mordor's castles with the Gatekeeper expansion). The Warg Sentries will improve this situation with the next patch, but the Dunlending Guardians of Orthanc should prove more durable.

Then I realised that Saruman has this useless ability when in his upgraded Wizard Tower at level 3: Power of Speech is supposed to upgrade recruitment buildings but with the centralised system of upgrading since 4.0 this has no utility whatsoever. I would suggest to implement the ability to summon Guardains of Orthanc here, because they exactly emphasise the aspects of defending Orthanc, Saruman, and the entire base when under siege. The ability could be done as such that Saruman orders the Guardians to protect a structure inside the base from enemy attacks, which is more useful to the extremely defence-oriented Wizard Tower as a whole, and improves Isengard's abilities in times of siege. Of course this ability should be on par with Saruman's ability Power of Speech on ground, for example by summoning more Guardians, making them as strong as beroic units (or like Denethor's summons), making them uncontrollable but permanently guarding the structure till death, or increasing the number of summoned units (between 5 and 15).

In general, I am FOR the concept. It will be a great improvement to Isengard's defensive play.

Walküre

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #25 am: 28. Dez 2016, 14:56 »
Thank you all for your positive responses; it always pleases me to see that good concepts receive the support they need.

Chief I honestly apologise, I mistakenly read over your post :/. Walkure I think the man should be credited for the idea as well ;).

A mistake of mine. I edited the post. You now may come back home safely  xD

The Witch-King of Angmar

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #26 am: 28. Dez 2016, 21:06 »
@Fredius, its ok bro, i was coming to visit anyways ; )

The ability could be done as such that Saruman orders the Guardians to protect a structure inside the base from enemy attacks, which is more useful to the extremely defence-oriented Wizard Tower as a whole,

do you mean you can select which building you want to defend and the Guards of Orthanc will patrol around it? while its true it will improve the defense system of the base alot and it will be very useful, however, i think this doesnt fit these troops as thier main goal should be gaurding saruman's tower "Guardians of Orthanc" and more importantly if we were to implement it this way, then Isengard's base will look so much similer to Misty Mountains base (both factions will share the same defense system) because the guardans of orthanc will guard the buildings in the base(uruk pit,..etc,) just like how goblins guards thiers (patroling around them with units), i dont think its a good idea having the normal buildings of isengard surrounded by humans, thats why i think its better if they guard only the citadel or if they patrol around the whole base in general for a very shot amount of time then disappear, and were so few in number because Isengrad runs mainly by uruks.

Odysseus

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #27 am: 28. Dez 2016, 22:45 »
The idea presented by Garlodur is also a good one, methinks. In particular, Gondor cav rushes are anathema to Isengard, because they are quite tanky so early in the game. Moreover, Saruman costs 3000, so defending against an early Cav rush is not really going to happen. Still, as said, they could grant some additional protection for Isengard's base. While his abilities in the Tower are really unique, they aren't particularly strong imo. The Fireball and Wizard blasts have very low range and can only really hit units that need to get into melee range, the increase in recruitment speed is barely noticable with his speech, and the speech has a chance to fail, so it's not reliable. Only that level 10 Thunderstorm is quite good, even though I think Saruman's tower kit could really use a few quality of life buffs.
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lordoflinks

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #28 am: 29. Dez 2016, 12:41 »
I agree
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

makis89

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #29 am: 29. Dez 2016, 14:22 »
i do not know if it is possible but it sounds good and lore-wise the whole idea , so i agree with the proposal.
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and her vomit darkness."