[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Aesthetic Improvements for Lothlórien/Mirkwood

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CragLord:

--- Zitat von: Gandalf7000 am  2. Dez 2015, 15:34 ---Hello! I have a proposal about Lothlorien warriors. I think they should have not just swords but shields as well. I found this picture in worldbuilder : http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/members/243153-albums7922-picture104235.jpg  that indicates that there already is such a model of elven warriors with shields. I mean, c'mon even orcs have shields, but elves don't?
 I found the quote from Lord of the rings wiki about the shields of silvan elves:

 "Shields were also used by the Elves and highly decorated in Elf-fashion, like their armour. Not much is described regarding shields, only that they were elaborate and protected the user well. Like most shields, they could be used as a weapon as well as a barrier. Unlike the shields used by Dwarves and Men, which were short and round, the Elven shields extended from neck to shin and thus offered premium protection from weapons that could be swung and thrown/fired."

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/4/43/Shield.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/180?cb=20080707150834&format=webp

It is said that elven skills at forging weapons and armor surpasses the race of men.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Hi there. :)

Well, there are nice proofs in lore (if this is true what you have said) for Silvan shield implementation. But those shields which you have proposed are shields of  Ñoldors (by weta and LotR movies). And those models of shields (almost same but whole in yellow) will be presented in Imladris faction.
That shield which you are proposing is very similar to shield of Gil-galad, and he was High King of Ñoldor. So in general if you want some good improvement for current Lothlórien swordsmen you must suggest some model which is related to Telerin elves or Galadhrim to be precise. Currently in weta works or any of Lotr movies I haven't see those models, but we shouldn't implement shields of Ñoldors for Galadhrim, that is for sure!  ;)

P.S So or to find some really corresponding models with description in lore about those Silvan Shields, or to make them using that description. But team shouldn't use model of Ñoldorian shileds for Silvan elves (Galadhrim) for sure. That is not lore wise, and as I said, those models you suggested will be presented in Imladris.

Regards,
CragLord

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: CragLord am 30. Nov 2015, 21:43 ---
--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 30. Nov 2015, 15:42 ---
So, what if it were named something like 'Horn of the Sindar'?
Lothlórien is the most powerful Sindarin realm in the War of the Ring (not that there were many more left at that time) and the most legitimate keeper of the Sindar's tradition.

I think that it would definitely be an interesting and very suitable lore reference  :)

I support a graphical change as well.
The current picture just doesn't indicate me anything so Sindarin (or of the Woodland Elves in general).
What about using the symbol of Doriath or a similar Sindar-related one, also to pay a tribute to the legendary Sindarin Realm by definition  8-)

There are so much analogies that could be made between Doriath and Lothlórien, and Melian definitely symbolises as well the 'angelic exception' I referred to in my previous comment, obviously with more legitimacy being her a Maia, but also 'subjected' to the authority of the real political leader as Elwë truly was.




--- Ende Zitat ---

That is also reasonable suggestion. :)
Lothlórien is the most powerful Sindarin (I would say Telerin mainly) realm in the War of the Ring, of course mainly because of Lady of Light and her influence. :)
I want to say, that I like also this suggestion, and I have analyzed it in some way as you will see. :)
As we know first Elves who inhabited the woods of Lothlórien was mostly Silvan and Nandor elves. Later as you have said in second age, after destruction of Beleriand, many of the Sindar of Beleriand migrated eastward. Some of them inhabited woods of Lothlórien (or in that time woods of Laurelindórenan).
Sindar boosted culture of their Silvan relatives. Even Sindarin replaced official Silvan language. So influence on those elves by Sindar was great on them.
Later when last ruler of Sindar line die (Amroth drown in his attempt to reach Valinor), Galadriel and Celeborn guided those elves. Under their leadership, elves of Lothlórien prosper.
So when we sum all lore facts, "citizens" of Lothlórien in time of War of the Ring are mostly Silvan in origin (mixed with Sindar and Nandor) which were firstly influenced by Sindar culture and later guided by Lady of Light (and Celeborn ofc).
So there is enough reasons to call it Horn of Sindar but also there is enough reasons not to do so. Because of that I think that general name "Horn of Lothlórien" or similar title is the best. Simply they are mix of three Teleri families and there is no need to point out any of names of those families. They are know as Galadhrim, and they present Teleri mix. :) As Sindar inluenced them during second age, so Gladriel did in third age.
My intention here was to eliminate that Ñoldor term from title of power, as it was so general in my opinion of those elves and wrong. And I tried hardly to explain why I think it is wrong in general term of it (lore and identity...).
Now concerning visual change, I hardly disagree about Sindarin symbol. As I have said, picture I have suggested is official Horn of Lothlórien. And I think it is the best choice. First, finally I have found some horn which is elegant in shape and appearance, it is of elven taste (not some animal horn etc).
Second, there is small banner on it with sign of Galadriel. It is her official standard as ruler of Lothlórien (as I have said it is not correlated with her Ñoldor side), and it is present on official banner of those elves. So it is hard correlated with Lothlórien, and we should watch it in that way.
Horn look with that Galadriel standard doesn't indicate anything to Sindarin or Nandor or Silvan side of this elves, it indicates on Lothlórien as unity or them in moment of WotR.
Also concerning Tingol's standard, I think it is wrong, simply because there is no heir of Tingol to use that standard as heritage. Celeborn was maybe member of his court and noble of Doriath, but he wasn't his heir. So I think it is wrong from that aspect to use officail Elwe's standard in any term for Lothlórien. Simply if we had some offical standard of Celeborn, we could pointed that out and so pointed out Sindar side. But using Tingol's standards is wrong in my opinion. "Similar" situation with Galadriel, she is using her own standard as ruler of Lothlórien. She isn't using nothing similar to standard of Finarfin. Good example for comparison I think. :)
No matter of that opinion of mine I have created some version of this picture for "Horn of Sindar". I am against it!  xD  :D




In second version I used official standard of Tingol which is reconstructed from Tolkien scratch, that one you suggested isn't colored in right way. :)


I tried to use Sindarin in that picture, and I hope it is in good form and "meaning".
Again, I think it is not lore wise to use Tingol sign or to Sindar name about this suggestion. I have tried in first part of comment to describe that. :)
Also, Horn of Sindar is better then current name, and it is more lore wise. So if my initial proposal isn't good for team, I would recall on this one. After all there is enough lore facts to integrate this but I just think that global "Lothlorien" situation is just better.
So we have  second mini proposal also in some way about this if my statement is wrong about those Sindarin things. (Precautions from my side, I know that my knowledge about Elves isn't in your rank Walk. :P )

Edit: My "last" work about this:


I think that shape of horn with those notes is perfect as suggestion for this Elves who are 100% Telerin in origin, and they are known as music lovers in general, as Ñoldors were famous as craftmen etc. So I think this is my suggestion number one. :)

Best Regards,
Crag


--- Ende Zitat ---

Well, I personally opted to focus on the reasons why we should choose 'Horn of the Sindar'  :P

'Sindar' doesn't obviously imply that this faction is indeed a totally Sindarin realm, nor is it intended to be a 'mere' reflection of what the lost kingdom of Doriath used to be in the First Age.
I chose it mainly to have another significant reference to a glorious moment of the Elven (Sindarin) History in the Ages of Arda; it's like a very symbolic memory of the past, that I definitely find more conceptual and appealing than a regular but very 'common' and generic 'Horn of Lothlórien'  :)

And, apart from this symbolic reason, as I have already stated above, the reference of Doriath might be legitimate as well, since Celeborn was a Sindarin Prince of the Court of Thingol, many people of Doriath themselves fled to the East founding what it would have become the Golden Wood in the Third Age, and the 'ruling class' of Lórien (intended as the mightiest and noblest Elves) was mainly Sindarin.

As usual, your graphical efforts are really remarkable  ;)
I like very much the Doriath symbol of the second version and the concept of the third version itself.

As you may already know, my Mind is a bit 'antiques-based', always seeking for past lore references to include when it's possible  :P

Adamin:
Oh really? So a Noldorin Horn with a focus on Galadriel is bad, but a Sindarin Horn with a focus on Celeborn is okay? :P

Why not a Silvan Horn? ;)

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am  2. Dez 2015, 21:23 ---Oh really? So a Noldorin Horn with a focus on Galadriel is bad, but a Sindarin Horn with a focus on Celeborn is okay? :P

Why not a Silvan Horn? ;)


--- Ende Zitat ---

Lothlórien is a Sindar-based realm, with a solid and ancient Sindarin 'ruling class', of which the Prince Celeborn is the apex.
So, taking for granted that the kingdom of Doriath is definitely the most famous and legendary Sindarin realm in this woodland kin's History, a Sindarin Horn might be the wisest and most conceptual choice, in my opinion.

While, although a Noldorin Horn for Galadriel could be logically legitimate, it would infer, I guess, that Galadriel is a 'common' political and military ruler of Lórien, as the other Elven Lords, and that the Noldorin warfare tradition is particularly strong and still present in Lothlórien.

Therefore, as I wrote above, Galadriel is indeed the leader of Lothlórien, but she's a very special exception.
The 'Angelic Exception' I explained above  (**)

A royal Noldorin Princess from Aman among brave Woodland Elves  8-)

CragLord:
Or to be precise, Lothlórien is Silvan realm in basic, hardly influenced by Sindar culture (with smaller % of Sindarin then Silvan propulation), guided by Sindarin ruler and influenced (guided) by "holy" presence of Galadriel.
One thing is certain, Lothlórien as place is completely Telerin in origin.
Galadriel is only exception there, as Ñoldor.
Not to complicate thing anymore, I am against any Ñoldor term in name, tried to explain above, can't write essay again. :P
There are enough facts to call power Horn of Silvan, but I think there are more reasons to call it Horn of Sindar, because of that "great" influence of Sindarin Elves on those Silvan natives of Lothlórien. Also we have unique sound in game for Horn of Mirkwood which should be the most accurate place for horn of Silvan, because Mirkwood elves are almost completely Silvan in origin (and in time of WoR).
I am against both names, simply because I look on Lothlórien as "Lothlórien", place where live all 3 Telerin families, and I shouldn't point any of names in this case.
Because of that I was for general name : "Lothlórien Heraldic Horn" or "Lothlórien Horn" or "Horn of Galadhrim" etc.
I was also against that Tingol's sign, I also tried to describe that in my previous comments, but I created that symbol anyway. It was fun, and it is there if team find it as more lore wise! :)
In general, just to eliminate that current Ñoldor term.
And in my opinion I think that picture with only notes and horn is the best choice so far. No ruling standards, just horn of elegant design (of elven taste) with notes (pointing of Telerin love for music).
That is simply my opinion.  ;)

Regards,
Crag

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