[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Lothlórien and Mirkwood

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FG15:

--- Zitat von: NetoD20 am 25. Dez 2015, 15:59 ---I don't wanna be the unpleasant guy who discusses with the Forum moderator, and I don't really understand much about modding. But... well I obviously didn't mean that there should be two castles built at the same time at the same spot, just clarifying that up, because the way you worded it gave the impression that that is what you thought I was proposing. Second, as the Dwarven realms work right now, the base is built and then you choose your desired realm. But I remember playing RJ mod back there and when you played the elves you started with that rock/castle ruins thing (the same one that exists in Edain from where you conquer new castles when there's too few players in a map with many player slots, the same one that appears at the begining of the game a few moments before your castle builds itself up) clicked on it and that chose Lothlórien or Rivendell, and the chosen base started to be build. I may be completely wrong, and I will search for a screenshot of the rock/ruins object I'm talking about, but I still think it's technically possible.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Trust me, if I tell you something is impossible, there is no way to implement it.

It is technically not possible, that a faction uses two different bases for a castle/camp/outpost. That is the reason, why every faction has at a maximum 1 outpost, which has buildplots.
If there would be a Lorien and a Mirkwood base to choose, that would be two bases and therefore not possible.

If you look at RJ mod, you should notice, that they use a completly differtent system for starting buildings. Instead of a base, which is unpacking, every faction has their own starting object. That is a 100% different system from the BfME1 building system. Just because these two object look quite alike, does not mean they do anything similar.

Firstly, even if the dwarves have a similar system, everything happening there is a small visual change, that the right subfaction flags are visible, as well as, that the building plots and the fortress changes the commandset. That is a giantic difference from a completly different base being generated. So, the Mirkwood base has to be basically the same as the Lorien one, with just some minor visual changes.

Secondly, then it would be exactly the same system as for the dwarves.

Adrigabbro:
Point by point:

1. If you want Mirkwood to have a bigger importance inside the faction, I don't think increasing the price of the outpost is the right thing to do because you will obviously need more money and therefore more time before building the outpost. Take Minas Morgul or Dol Guldur that both cost 3000. They may be important to the expansion of the faction, a decent amount of games, if not most games, end before you are able to build them. That's my first note regarding your idea.
Secondly, I'm afraid I didn't quite understand what you meant: do you mean Mirkwood outpost should basically be a second castle? If you do mean so, I'd say Mirkwood outpost is already a mimic of Lorien camp. If not, I apologize.

2. I was gonna say that it is already the case but I checked first and it was the right move, you are correct. So, I can only agree with you. (beware of balance though, but from a theoretical point of view it looks very good)

3. That's something I wanted to talk about!
More generally, something I LOVE in Edain is how every single unit and hero has a purpose, from early to late game.
Take Lothlorien faction and their archers : Lorien archers, Galadhrims, CG guardians and Mirkwood archers (I deliberately leave Elkriders aside, see below).
Lorien archers excel at range and are fast, Galadhrims have a weapon switch and damage multipliers since the last patch (!God I love that buff!), CG guardians, if I'm not mistaking, are meant to destroy heavily armored enemies. Finally, Mirkwood archers are great mass slayers thanks to their attack speed steroid. See? Theoratically, no unit becomes obsolete from a point of the game and they all are different.

Well, I'd like to reproduce that pattern with pikesmen, and for that Mirkwood regular pikesmen are a great idea, but contrary to your idea, I still think Palace guards have to be recruitable.
As quickly as possible: Lorien pikesmen would have speed, Mirkwood pikesmen would have the defense aspect thanks to the formation you proposed and Palace guards would offer damage (porcupine formation? or a new one)

4. Elkriders... I don't like this unit. :D At the moment their role is some kind of anti-armor unit, but it doesn't make sense, why them? Plus they are so in conflict with Mirkwood's current identity.
So, I'm not really in favor of expanding on them (perhaps my vision of them will change with time, who knows).
The only thing I can think of is to tie them with the 3 points power spell.

5. No offense to your ideas but to be honest, I very much like current Mirkwood buildings and upgrades.

6. (is that a 6. ? :D ) Damn right! Galadirel remains Galadriel, she is a source of inspiration for all : Lorien, Mirkwood, Fangorn and the Vales of Anduin.

Odysseus:
Woops. Dat 6 though.

Damn, that's perhaps the longest reply I've had yet. Thank you so much mate :D.

Well, personally, I don't like the Elk Riders/Archers too much either, but I believe it would be wiser to expand on them if they remain. I mean, it's quite strange that cavalry come out of a castle :P, especially Mirkwood.

I rarely get them as well, but that's not because they aren't useful or anything like that. It's just that I seem to do fine without them so far. Oh, and a PP spell for the Elkriders sounds pretty nice, from an aesthetical point of view, but 2 cavalry with a hero for a 3PP spell, isn't that a bit too powerful?

About the changes to the buildings, it's only to accomodate the prior changes. I doubt Lothlorien's Forge would make forged blades for Mirkwood, lest reduce their costs. See what I mean?

I think the only issue having both spearmen will be that you will have overlap and a bit of confusion. If you can get Mirkwood Spearmen and Palace Guards, it's probably always better to get Palace Guards, since they have more health and damage. But, I simply feel this unit to be too Tower Guardish, just like how the Elk Riders are too Rohan Archerish, so I would not mind seeing that change.

So, in short, I think my leadership arguments and the Mirkwood Spearmen are the most important for me, and partially the shared concern for Elk Riders. The rest is kind of as is haha.

Thanks for the feedback, mon ami!

Walküre:
This is a very interesting topic indeed, for you could maybe witness that the Lothlórien/Mirkwood 'issue' has been brought out many times both here and on ModDB; from not so detailed suggestions about minor changes, to proposals regarding Mirkwood as a possible independent faction on its own (a completely new faction, a separate faction working like the current Dwarven system or a change in the roles between Lothlórien and Mirkwood from the beginning of the game, at the player's choice).

Needless to say, the topic inevitably involves further matters apart from the 'mere' technical ones, like the very role and uniqueness of each faction in the general hierarchy of the faction's system itself.

However, before expressing my opinion, I will merge this thread with the one in this same section that deals with a very similar topic.
Given that I wil change also the title of the new 'united' thread, I want to assure that the result won't thus be a simple assimilation of two threads that concern similar matters, but a completely new discussion, wider and without any fragmentation within (which could lead to unnecessary repetitions or divisions in a broad debate as this is).

MERGED with: http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32375.msg424022.html#msg424022
Ok, now let's talk a bit about it.

As you can see along various threads of different sections, I always tended to object every proposal about Mirkwood getting a major role, or just more prominent, in the whole faction.

Let alone the technical and gameplay-related issues that have already been considered and stated here (spellbook, heroes, originality, graphics...), which already mark a precise line as well, I would say, I would like to focus mainly on conceptual aspects.

Agreeing more or less with Odysseus, the fact that I don't understand is how Mirkwood could ever be an independent faction on its own or have a more prominent role, as if (as someone has hinted at) it didn't already have it now, taking into consideration that we are talking about the Edain Mod, which necessarily has its own standards and boundaries regarding the gameplay and the structure of its own essence.

That's why it wouldn't be very logical, I guess, not considering the diminishing power and importance of the Elves in the late (and I want to stress 'late') Third Age, talking about great and majestic realms (that share the same noble Sindarin bloodline of Doriath via their own rulers, Celeborn and Thranduil), but not at all comparable to the 'real' wide and expanded realms like Gondor and Rohan, that embody the characteristic traits of the dynamic realms that we commonly have knowledge of.

Both Lothlórien and Mirkwood are of completely diverse standards, being realms indeed, with their own territories, armies and rulers, but of a significantly different Nature (mainly due to the involvement of Magic and a particular History in their own past and present).

Just as, I think, it wouldn't be fair 'elevating' Thranduil to the level of Galadriel as a Ring Hero and, consequently, the most important hero of the entire faction (Lothlórien/Mirkwood).
And the relative reasons, I take it for granted, have already been more than exposed in different occasions; if you miss some of them, I recommend you to visit the Prancing Pony and its relative lore discussions  ;)

Therefore, I personally object any proposal of this kind.
I believe that Mirkwood already has a very significant and valuable space in its own faction, the best one could probably expect within the boundaries of the Edain Mod (and arguably the best representation and rendition of Mirkwood, both conceptually and gameplay speaking, in a BFME Mod).

Some of the suggestions of Odysseus, though, are really valuable.
Small 'adjustments' that could concur to give Mirkwood a more unique role, if this is really necessary.

DrHouse93:
I agree with you, Walk, when you say that both the realms, beyond than different, are equally important and complement each other. That's why I proposed to just swap the starting realm depending on the map. It's just more logical to find Mirkwood as the starting faction in Mirkwood, than rather Lorien

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