[en] The Prancing Pony > Other

A possible new Evil Men faction

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dkbluewizard:
Well I know your position LordofLinks.

I am more in favor (as you know) of a Dwarf implemented system. So you start off with a "Evil Men Fortress" and whatever faction you choose (Rhun or Harad) makes the Fortress that color.

The units I think would function very similarly. I mean, both would have swordsmen, spearmen, etc. I don't have to go into how different the 3 Dwarf kingdoms are, you can just see it with their units (IE axethrowers, crossbowmen, etc)

So I am more in favor of Evil Men being implemented the Dwarf way, that is why I suggest 4 ringheroes. Two for Harad and Two for Rhun, while incorporating your outpost ideas for each faction (Umbar for Harad, but Khand for Rhun).

I still feel we can implement all your ideas through this system and I think it would help evil in the factions department, now I know you stated that there would be 5 good and 5 evil, but if you really look at the factions in-depth and see what is posted on Edain Wiki, the final factions list would be as follows (with our ideas included):

Good
3 Men: Arnor, Gondor, Rohan
3 Dwarfs: Ered Luin, Iron Hills, Erebor
3 Elves: Imladris, Lothlorien, Dorwinion Court

Evil
Mordor, Isengard, Angmar
Misty Mountains, Dorwinion Cult
Rhun, Harad

So good will have 9 factions and evil 7, I would like to see Rhun and Harad implemented in the Evil Men faction this way not just for the above reason, but because Harad and Rhun were very distinct from each other. They CAN do it with the Dwarfs, I feel this can be done for this faction, No I KNOW it can be done for this faction.

Lord Aytugar:
Hey dkbluewizard

I have some ideas to share for this faction. I have written some of them on Moddb. My opinion about this 'Easterlings and Southrons' named faction is maybe not entirely but categoricly summer form of Angmar. General system is Rhun starts; wind mill, variag tent of Khand, corsair tavern of Umbar are settlements and Haradrim Camp is outpost. The relationship with Angmar is hero-center that meaning of the Witch King is Khamul for Rhun. We know Rhun was an alliance to Mordor at Khamul's time. However there is influence of Sauron and WK, not equally but similarly must be in this faction.

Buildings of Rhun can be wine-market(can be used for Dorwion also) ,seafood-market, armory(banner carrier,forged blades, shield for infantry and cavalry, fire arrows), barrack(rhun soldiers, archers, spearmen), stable(rhun riders, wainriders(selectable for wagon or chariot)), temple of Melkor(sorcerers and illusioners which use fire/flame and shadow), tower, statue of sauron.

On the settlements variang tent recruits axe-men infantry and cavalry. Orginally BFME 2 used corsairs for light infantry like Dunland clan for Isengard, i am intent to do it that way. So tavern should be on settlement and recruit corsair plunderers and archers, plus ballista, maybe assassins max 3 time.

Haradrim Camp is very questionable to be seperated faction. Being solo faction to Harad makes Rhun so weak. Also Harad do not have direct relationship to Sauron over a ringwraith. Rhun is more defensive but like half-cavalry faction, it cames from far lands. They do not have siege machines their own, to do that they need a settlement or an outpost. Agression of Harad is really force for Rhun. Their fortress can be like RJ Rotwk mod's: in the front statue of dragons can fires or snakes, buildings are farm, haradrim palace(haradrim warriors, archers, spearmen can switch throwing and black serpents max 3), mumakil pen(mumakils and half-trolls).

Rhun economy is based on trade so we need to use this. Building level up system is like dwarves when markets and wind mill get level 3, others would levels up except Temple. Temple can one level up after Fankil's created, then maybe Fankil gets level 5 because it is connected directly to Melkor through Fankil, not to economy.

Heroes would be Khamul the Black Easterling(building supporter?), Fankil(mage or unit support), Suladan(mass slayer), Saleme(hero killer), Brodda or Lorgan King of Rhun, Sakerlan King of Khand(could be building destroyer), Castamyr Lord of Umbar PJ ;)

Ring hero system is very different. These men do not have  an ethical rule nor discipline. Their reputation is not trusted or reliable. Everyone betrays the others when has the chance to be rich or get the power. So each hero must be ring hero but ones they picked up the ring they shall not have for second time. The influence of ring is different for every hero, Khamul and Fankil shine through but when the others get the ring can be rich or being a commander of large armies. Fankil can turn into a new Sauron and Khamul can make every allied building %25 faster.

For spellbook i will not say so much before approvement of these. Somehow it can be done, there are scorpions, snakes, sank storm, etc to use.

I hope it is not over powered. Heroes and their rolls or units can change actually everything can change. I just wonder what is your comment.

dkbluewizard:
Several things I would like to address Lord Aytugar, while some of your ideas are good others need to be worked on.

As far as some of the hero names are concerned, I feel you have done a good job at writing them out. However, as I stated, Fankil should not be with the Evil Men faction as he is a Maia and Evil has enough powerful evil maia on their side.

Now in regards to Khamul, he is implemented with Mordor, now I understand that you want him with Rhun like WK is with Angmar, but you have to remember that the Evil Men faction is during the time of WOTR, which means Khamul is acting out with Sauron's Mordor units. He cannot be a hero with this faction and I feel the Evil Men should have only "Evil Men" as heroes, much the same way Rohan doesn't have anyone outside of Middle Men/Rohirrim.

As I have stated earlier, I feel the Evil Men faction has to be done the way the Dwarfs are implemented, as I feel that is more canonical and true to their nature as Evil Men. They are just as likely to fight each other as anyone else (it is a power struggle).

Your ideas were good and I can tell some time and thought went into them (which I appreciate a lot) however, as stated earlier the system has to be split like the Dwarfs.

If it could be done, I would be in more favor of a Khand, Umbar, Rhun and Harad all being their own factions that we could pick from the Evil Men fortress with their being One Ring hero for each faction. I think this would be cool and then their would be 9 Good factions total and 9 Evil factions. Khand's subfaction could be Rhun and vice versa. Umbar's subfaction could be Harad and vice versa.

This may be too much work, but that would be the best system that would compliment everything we have done. LordofLinks, perhaps you could google drive this if you have the chance? Maybe we still need to flush some more things out though.

Thank you both for the awesome posts and ideas Lord Aytugar and LordofLinks, keep them coming!

lordoflinks:
Having all 4 men be their own fraction would be unfeasible; both from the fact you could not come up with enough unique buildings (I shudder at coming up with a whole roster of units and buildings for Khand) and it makes it seem they were all equal. They were not; really Umbar and Khand should be subfractions to Harad and Rhun respectively as while Umbar may be independent (Hello Melkor worshippers...) its not big enough to be its own fraction.
I shall create a document based on my concept which was one fraction; in such a case Rhun would have walls such as the ones seen in Glofindal's rhun map only with the roofs risen up so units can walk on them, and the walls become red upon researching the upgrade. After I have done so we can look into a dwarf system but first I would like you to see a visual representation of my concept. The King of Rhun is now named Dragon-King as a allusion to the fact that Khamul once held that title.
Final point in response to Lord Aytugar; I would not grant magic to Rhun as I felt they always were a evil gondor who had no need for it; rather I would give them weapons based on greek fire.

Lord Aytugar:
Dkbluewizard, LordofLinks

I see both comments of yours and i understand the reasons of each idea. I understand my Khamul idea was not proper for that age. Despite i am not agaist the idea of dkbluewizard 2 separated factions, i think it is irrelevant strategicly. Rhun is defensive and Harad is not. Even spellbooks match entirely or ring hero systems rework, how can the tactical problem solve?

On the other hand lordoflinks's opinion is more fitting mine. Especially Tribal, Confederate and Imperial upgrade system is magnificent. But i prefer half-trolls instead of summon Variag army. Also Lone Tower spell is not suitable for this faction, i think scorpions or serpents or arrow valley make more sense. Generally the lore and your (ET) imagination bring out excellent results. Nevertheless i believe it would take a long time, i can not measure when will be the final of Edain Mod, i hope its come asap.

Thank you both for comments.

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