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Autor Thema: The History of the Noldor  (Gelesen 10329 mal)

VectorMaximus

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The History of the Noldor
« am: 20. Feb 2016, 01:41 »
Hello Edain community! I have decided today to unleash a massive post upon the world of men… Everything I know about the Noldor.

The Noldor are dearest to me of all the children of Eru, and I hope to spread their tale in full, from the Great Journey to the Early Fourth Age, when their songs and stories end. This will probably be done in about 4 posts; One for the years of the trees and the Darkening, one for the First Age (which will undoubtedly be the longest), the Second Age, and so forth.  Note there will be my interpretation to an extent in their history, thought I shall attempt to be unbiased. PREPARE YOURSELVES!

Characteristics

 The Noldor were tall and predominately dark-haired with grey eyes. They were known as the Deep Elves during their early days in Valinor due to the fact that they grew deep in knowledge and understanding, desiring ever more for it. In Middle-Earth, after the Exile, they were named the High Elves or the Wise Elves, particularly after the diaspora of the Sindar of Doriath, the only other ‘High’ enlightened Elves that dwelled in Arda. They were first and foremost smiths and loremasters, builders of cities and enchanters of great skill.

History of the Noldor

The First of the Noldor woke at Cuiviénen in the far east of Middle-Earth. They, along with the Vanyar, heeded the summons of the Valar Westward, and at this time took Finwe as their King and Lord. They were the middle sized of the 3 hosts, being larger than the Vanyar but smaller than the Teleri.



After arriving in Valinor, the Noldor were still wary of the Light of the Trees and desired also to still see the stars. And so they founded Tirion upon the hill of Tuna, which stood in the valley of Calacirya, the Cleft of Light, which was the only point in which the Pelori broke and the light of the Trees shone out of Valinor. From here, they could bask in the light but also see the stars in twilight if they so desired.



The Vanyar for a time ruled from this city, with the Tower of Ingwe, High King of the Eldar sitting in the center, with the Palaces of Finwe at its feet. However, when the Vanyar moved fully into Valinor and inhabited Valimar, the Noldor gained full control and mastery over the city. Tirion was a city of pure white, with crushed diamond forming sand beneath your feet, with crystal stairs. From here would Finwe rule, and in this city the 3 Royal Houses of the Noldor would be born.

And for a time, the Noldor dwelled in peace and prosperity in Tirion, ever increasing in Knowledge as their studies increased in depth and breath. The Noldor grew very close to Aule in those days, and learned much from him. They wrought a scepter for Manwe, as a symbol of his rule, and helped the Teleri build Alqualondë.

The 3 Houses of the Noldor were the houses of Fingolfin, Feanor, and Finarfin, the 3 sons of Finwe (pictured below left to right).





The House of Feanor

The House of Feanor was the first royal house of the Noldor, and was established by Curufinwë (his father name) IE Fëanáro (his mother name) IE Feanor. His house would face a ruinous end however. In his grief and madness during the Darkening he and his sons swore a terrible oath that would bring them nothing but grief, eventually leading to the death of his entire line save his grandson Celebrimbor, who did not swear the oath. It is said that at the end of days Feanor shall be let out of Mandos, at last having healed of his bitterness and pride, and his house may be restored to its place as the First Royal House of the Noldor. Those Noldor who followed the Banner of Feanor were known as the Feanorians.

The House of Fingolfin

The House of Fingolfin was the second royal house of the Noldor. It was established by Ñolofinwë(his father name); Arakáno (his mother name); most commonly known as Fingolfin. His house, while initially the second heir to the High-Kingship, would boast the most High-Kings of the Noldor, after Meadhros ceded the crown to his uncle. 3 High-Kings (4 if you include Gil-Galad, but his parentage is rather confused and is a matter of interpretation, so I’ll be conservative) out of 7 would come from this house. The House of Fingolfin would endure in direct lineage until the 4rth age through the House of Elrond, as well as the bloodline of the Kings of Numenor, through the descent of Turgon of Gondolin.

The House of Finarfin

The House of Finarfin was the third royal house of the Noldor, also known as the Golden House of Finarfin, after the golden hair he inherited from his mother, Indis of the Vanyar. Finarfin (Arafinwë - Father name, Ingoldo, mother name) was the youngest of the 3 sons of Finwe. He and his people turned back from the Exile after the Doom of the Noldor and were forgiven by the Valar. Finarfin was crowned King of the Noldor in Aman, though the title of High-Kingship would remain in Middle-Earth. He would only leave Valinor to fight in the War of Wrath. Since it is unknown whether Finwe, the rightful king of Tirion has been re-embodied yet, he may still reign in Tirion as king even unto the 4rth age and farther, though he may have stepped down for his brother, Fingolfin, who was High-King.

Feanor

As one of the most hotly contested character in Tolkien’s legendarium, while I generally won’t go into detail about specific characters (this is about the Noldor as a whole, after all), I feel I must at least make an effort to explain Feanor, and his mindset.

When Feanor was born, his mother died due to the strain of the birth and refused to return to life. Likely hearing about how she had died giving birth to him, Feanor became incredibly defensive towards the subject of his mother and protective of her memory, even taking a changing in the pronunciation of her name as an insult towards him. At the same time, due to lacking a mother, he came to love his father all the more and did anything he could to be the center of his father’s love. When his father remarried, he was highly upset to say the least. He had no inclination to grow closer with his step-mother or Half-brothers, being cold and cordial towards them at best as well as dwelling apart from them, which definitely did not help later relations between the 3 houses. Feanor was ever wary of the intentions of others and saw the worst of them, which would greatly harm him later in life.

However, he loved his people and his people loved him, and though his family life was not perfect, there was peace and content in Tirion. He designed the Elvish Tengwar script, designed the Feanorian lamps, created the Palantirs, and lastly made the Silmarils, vessels to forever preserve the light of the Trees.

When Melkor was released from Mandos and began to teach and counsel the Noldor, Feanor would not listen and hated him deeply which would only grow with time, perceiving in him ill will. But Melkor was nothing if not crafty, and the Noldor were becoming proud in their knowledge and skills. While Feanor would not listen to him, he would pay far more head to the whisperings among his people, which spoke ever more against the Valar and the realms they may have made in Middle-Earth, and Feanor spoke most among them. Feanor heard in this time rumors of Fingolfin planning to both take his place as heir and turn his beloved father against him (rumors said and perpetrated by Melkor).  After hearing Fingolfin counsel his father to tell Feanor to stop saying his increasingly bitter words vs the Valar and his plans to build a realm for the Noldor in Middle-Earth, Feanor drew his sword upon his half-brother in court, telling him to know his place.

The Valar banished Feanor from Tirion for drawing a blade upon another Elda, hoping to curb his slowly growing paranoia and pride. He and many of his followers, including his father, went to the north of Valinor and established Formenos. However, the banishment did the exact opposite, causing him to lose nearly all trust in anything save those he knew loyal to him and the works of his hands, particularly the Silmarils.



Here he would stay until the Valar summoned him, to reconcile him and Fingolfin. Feanor reluctantly reconciled with his half-brother, and for a moment it seemed like the Noldor would be united and the slowly growing divisions would be mended. Then the Darkening began.

With the trees felled and the Valar asking for his most prized creations, bitter and without allies, he said that he would not surrender them willingly, and that if the Valar should take them by force, they would be truly kin of Melkor. He believed that all sought to steal the Silmarils from him. And then the tiding from Formenos came of the slaying of Finwe and the taking of the Silmarils, Feanor then cursed Melkor and named him Morgoth, fleeing into the night in grief and tears. For Feanor had loved his father above all things, more than his people, then the peerless works of his hands, and he would have gladly lost all these things but for his father.

Feanor then became half-mad with grief and bitter about his life in Valinor; which he saw as hardly exempt from suffering, for had he not suffered ere he was born, with his mother dead? Was Middle-Earth not better, for at least there suffering also was bound with freedom? Then he stirred the Noldor to rebellion, and out of loyalty to his family and vengeance for his father Fingolfin followed him, with most of his people.

 Feanor was driven by two things now; vengeance for his father, and the desire to reclaim his beloved Silmarils. To achieve these ends, he and his sons swore an oath to reclaim the Silmarils, no matter the cost. Unfortunately, as stated above, this would end in the ruin of his house, save his grandson Celebrimbor who did not swear the Oath. All his sons who swore would die save Maglor, who would spend his days lamenting the folly of the Oath, and singing the history of the Noldor in the Noldolantë.

The Oath of Fëanor
Zitat
"Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean,
 brood of Morgoth or bright Vala,
 Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,
 Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,
 neither law, nor love, nor league of swords,
 dread nor danger, not Doom itself,
 shall defend him from Fëanor, and Fëanor's kin,
 whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh,
 finding keepeth or afar casteth
 a Silmaril. This swear we all:
 death we will deal him ere Day's ending,
 woe unto world's end! Our word hear thou,
 Eru Allfather! To the everlasting
 Darkness doom us if our deed faileth.
 On the holy mountain hear in witness
 and our vow remember, Manwë and Varda!"



Feanor then turned to the Teleri for aid, hoping that his people’s old allies would heed his plee and lend him their ships. However, the Teleri, hoping to keep the Noldor from rash action, refused to help them cross the sea. Enraged at this new betrayal, another in a long list in Feanor’s mind, if not in reality, he ordered the Noldor to begin manning the ships with force. The Teleri, to stop them from launching the ships began throwing the Noldor overboard, as well as threatening them with arrows and rocks in addition to blockading the harbor. At some point after this someone drew blades (it is unknown which side attacked first, though it is more than likely it was the Noldor in anger over the blockade and harassment) and the First Kinslaying had begun.

Feanor and his host headed north to the near edge of the grinding ice, when Mandos spoke their doom – they would suffer greatly in Middle-Earth, and the undying realm would be closed to them. The house of Feanor who had sworn the Oath would suffer all ruin in the end, and would not be redeemed until the end of time, when the Last Battle at last began. But Feanor laughed bitterly in the face of this proclamation, saying “this we have sworn, and not lightly”, adding to the end that even if they should fail and suffer, their actions should be sung for all time.

Now swiftly Feanor and his sons seized the fleet with those sworn to them, abandoning Fingolfin to the grinding ice, for Feanor was now deathly afraid of yet another betrayal, and would not risk it. Burning the fleet, he and his host set out across middle-earth. Eventually Feanor would run ahead of the host in his mad desire for vengeance, and would fight Morgoth’s Host of Balrogs. He would survive the battle but die of his wounds, his fea consuming his body in fire.

He then shall dwell in the Halls of Mandos till the Final Battle, for in his bitterness he could not repent and heal from his emotional and trust issues, save after a great many ages. But in the prophecy of Dagor Dagorlad there is hope for his redemption, and at last the Noldor may be made whole, with the greatest of their people at last as he should have been.

The Noldor after the Release of Melkor

Melkor came among the Noldor and shared much knowledge and lore with them, all the while counseling them and feeding their ambitions and discontent with the Valar. He gave them the designs for Sword and Shield, which he undoubtedly would come to regret later. Finally the lies of Melkor culminated in the drawing of Feanor’s blade upon his half-brother, splitting the Noldor, his dark works at last bearing fruit. His lies would further go onto influence Feanor’s viewpoints toward the world, though he hated him, ironically. So you could very well argue that Melkor started the Rebellion of the Noldor (in fact, I do).

During the reconciliation of Fingolfin and Feanor, Melkor struck at the trees with Ungoliant and killed them before stealing north toward Fermenos, taking the Silmarils and slaying Finwe, which would send Feanor into despair and madness and help begin the rebellion of the Noldor. Then the Noldor endeavored to leave Valinor, to make realms of their own and wage war upon the slayer of their king. The first Kinslaying between the Teleri and Noldor occurred in the havens of Alqualondë. After managing to claim the fleet they headed north, to the brink of the Helcaraxë, where they were cursed with the Doom of Mandos, which was harsh on those Noldor who chose exile, harsher still on those who were kinslayers, and harshest towards those who swore the Oath of Feanor. On a personal note, I'm not quite sure when the rebellion reached the point of no return, where the Noldor, no matter what would have rebelled. Perhaps when Melkor instructed them in the making of blades? The mere fact that they made blades means they would eventually use them.

Feanor took the fleet with his loyal men and forced them to burn the ships even as Fingolfin led his host across the grinding ice, determined now more than ever to reach middle-earth. What drives such loyalty, and was it even loyalty? Was him saying "thou shalt lead and I shalt follow" really that important?



The Feanorians are attacked by Morgoth’s host in middle-earth in their encampment on the Lake of Mithrim, but they managed to fight them back, only to have Feanor run ahead and get caught in a fight with many Balrogs, eventually leading to his death. Sometime after this Fingolfin’s host came out from the north and so…

Zitat
“. . . as the host of Fingolfin marched into Mithrim the Sun rose flaming in the West; and Fingolfin unfurled his blue and silver banners, and blew his horns, and flowers sprang beneath his marching feet, and the ages of the stars were ended.”
-   The Silmarillion

Hope you all enjoyed. Feel free to say whether you think the interpretation is accurate, what you view differently, basically anything you feel about the Noldor.

Also, just out of curiosity, if you guys could support any one Elvish Lord or King, who would you support, and why? Me, Fingolfin all the way, cause he's honorable, just, and badass enough to permanently scar MORGOTH(and you cannot pick Galadriel Walk, cause we can all see that coming a mile away. :D). He was, as the tales tell, most valiant of the Elven-Kings of old.

VectorMaximus
« Letzte Änderung: 20. Feb 2016, 20:31 von VectorMaximus »
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Fredius

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #1 am: 20. Feb 2016, 14:25 »
Nice work dude. I enjoyed reading it ;).

Walküre

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #2 am: 20. Feb 2016, 15:43 »
Really?
Am I really so predictable?  xD

Well, in this case (even though my choice would be definitely set upon the Princess Galadriel), I choose Finarfin  :)

It has always fascinated me the fact that he and all his family have always had a deep and profound sacred respect for the Valar and their authority, albeit having chosen a different path and paid the relative consequences.
Never has Galadriel and her kin, in fact, had ill feelings or pure resentment towards the Lords of the West; but she truly was a proud Noldo as well, characterised by an untameable desire of challenging directly the power of Morgoth in Middle Earth and ruling wild and free lands (but no way would she have governed over others via violence and domination).

Indeed, the House of Finarfin was the most akin to the High and majestic Vanyar, given also the very ancestry of the Sons of Finarfin, which basically consisted of a legendary bloodline intertwined with the royal families of the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri at the same time  8-)

The proud yet sad Royal Family of the Noldor unfortunately faced an almost complete extermination – as the tales tell us – accountable to nothing but the terrible schemes of the Evil.
Galadriel, though, survived and remained in Middle Earth as the de facto Queen of all Elves, royal and majestic as her kin, the greatest Noldo of all time along with Fëanor.
Finarfin remained always loyal to Valinor, remaining forever in Aman as the King of Tirion, except when he himself chose to lead the host of the Noldor of Aman in Beleriand during the War of Wrath.

Fëanor was the mightiest, Fingolfin the most resilient and bravest, and Finarfin the wisest.

P.S. Obviously, great thread, Vector!
Let's keep History and Lore relevant and love-worthy as well, in this forum  (**)

VectorMaximus

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #3 am: 20. Feb 2016, 16:22 »
Someone owes me money because you picked Finarfin. xD

I absolutely agree with the short descriptions of the 3 brothers. Finarfin the Wise (though Turgon already has that title), Fingolfin the Valiant, and Feanor the Radiant (both literally and figuratively).

While Galadriel is definitely in the top 3 Noldor, I personally put Fingolfin as #2, because Galadriel when we evaluate her is at the height of her experience and power in the 3rd age, after many years of experience, which doesn't seem fair to all the powerful beings who fell in the 1st age. So, I compare them in the first age, personally. Galadriel is still quite powerful then (she learned from Melian herself for crying out loud!), but Fingolfin beats her out, IMO. The guy manages to permanently damage an Archangel (fallen, albeit), something no other non-Ainur can claim. The only reason this feat of power doesn't vault him over Feanor is that Feanor managed to capture the Light, something nobody but the Valar themselves can claim, as well as fighting near-single handily an entire host of Maia (the balrogs), though he died shortly after.

However, I have to ask, when we describe these people as 'mightiest' or 'mighty' or 'greatest', what exactly do we mean? Are they greatest in body, mind, magic, what? That's one of the things that have always bothered me a bit in Tolkien. Whenever there are great battles, no strategies or powers are ever described. Tolkien says that they are simply 'mighty', such as when Earendil slay Ancalagon the Black, or Ecthelion vs Gothmog.

Just out of curiousity, do you believe Finarfin would give up the throne of Tirion to either his brother or father when they are reincarnated? Because while he was King of the Noldor of Aman, both of them were High-Kings, which are (theoretically) the supreme leaders of the Noldor in all the physical world.

I'm really glad you're enjoying it so far Walk!
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Walküre

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #4 am: 20. Feb 2016, 17:02 »
Yes, a very fair question  :)
I recall we often dealt with the definition of being mighty in this section; especially when we talked about titles.

I think that being mighty means exactly the summary of all the deeds and the legacy a character leaves in the World, for the good and the evil.
So, I don't think it would be so unfair to consider also all the lifespan of Galadriel – the fact itself that she endured so much and finally saw the evil defeated – and her status in the Third Age, as the de facto Queen of all Elves, ruler of a magically protected realm (resembling the experience of Melian), being an inviolable shield for the Free People and the main nemesis of Sauron (until the arrival of Gandalf the White, at least).
And, last but not least, the fact that Galadriel finally 'redeemed' completely for all her previous ambitious desires and eventually rejected the very Power objectified, the One Ring, accepting her destiny and what had been the Valar's advices to the Noldor millennia before: that they would have found a natural shelter and the longed Bliss only and solely in Valinor, despite what they had foolishly believed.
Yes, I think being mighty should be regarded as a summary of all these aspects, considering also that enduring against Time is a very recurrent and fundamental theme in the whole Tolkien's production  ;)

No, I don't think Finarfin would ever renounce his title, or, better, Fingolfin or someone else claim it as its own prerogative.
Both Fingolfin and Finrod, along with all the other ones who left Aman, were banished by the Archangels, and consequently lost their possibility to claim again, in case they had wanted to, the title of King of the Noldor as theirs (this is my interpretation).
Finarfin has always remained loyal; this is the point and the difference from his kin, although some of them managed to gain back their body and be admitted again in Valinor.

Adamin

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #5 am: 20. Feb 2016, 17:17 »
Very amazing Thread indeed. That is a great collection of Noldor history. ^^

I would add to your telling of Fëanors birth, that his Mother Míriel didn't just die because of the physical strain of childbirth. She was consumed in spirit and body, she was spent by bringing Fëanors burning spirit into the world.
Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
[Míriel:]"Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor."
That it's not just a weariness of her body is also evident in that she was afterwards given into the care of Irmo and Estë in Lórien, the place of physical healing and refreshment in Valinor, but even they couldn't help her and she passed into Mandos Halls.
So Fëanor was just so awesome (in the archaic terrifying sense), that his mother had to completely give herself up and put all of her strength into him. In a sense, she was the first to be consumed by the fire of his spirit...

Other than that, your summary is pretty spot on. You could have added some focus on the Silmarils (for example them also being a reason for Fëanor to leave Valinor and pursue Morgoth), and I would like to see a fully detailed description of the Oath of Fëanor (after all that is the most relevant and recurring motive of the Noldor), but those are just cherries. ^^
I totally forgot that the Doom of Mandos was spoken after the kinslaying and that Fëanor sneaked away with the boats! Thanks for reminding me. :)

Zitat
On a personal note, I'm not quite sure when the rebellion reached the point of no return, where the Noldor, no matter what would have rebelled. Perhaps when Melkor instructed them in the making of blades? The mere fact that they made blades means they would eventually use them.
Mmmh, hard to say. Since Fëanor was the main force behind the rebellion I'd say its finally bound to him and his rage after Morgoths escape.

Zitat
Feanor took the fleet with his loyal men and forced them to burn the ships even as Fingolfin led his host across the grinding ice, determined now more than ever to reach middle-earth. What drives such loyalty, and was it even loyalty? Was him saying "thou shalt lead and I shalt follow" really that important?
That's a really interesting thought! I actually think it had also something to do with responsibility. With their father dead and Fëanor turning fey (great word by the way) Fingolfin had to follow his brother and keep him in check. You could say that he really dodged that bullet. ^^

Zitat
Also, just out of curiosity, if you guys could support any one Elvish Lord or King, who would you support, and why?
For me it's a tie between Fingolfin and Finrod Felagond. The first one was pretty amazing, but Finrod just sounds so damn likable in the Silmarillion. ^^
He's wise, just, and forsighted. He founded two great dwellings in Beleriand  and he was a friend to almost everyone, be it Elf, Men or Dwarf. And most importantly: He's the perfect example for someone holding to his oath no matter what.


Zitat
(and you cannot pick Galadriel Walk, cause we can all see that coming a mile away. :D)
At least a thousand miles! xD



Zitat
Galadriel, though, survived and remained in Middle Earth as the de facto Queen of all Elves
Except for, you know, the Avari. :P

Walküre

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #6 am: 20. Feb 2016, 18:01 »
Zitat
Galadriel, though, survived and remained in Middle Earth as the de facto Queen of all Elves
Except for, you know, the Avari. :P

You know, the Avari don't really matter; they are like the uncivilised and wild relatives that you would never desire to meet  :D
Anyway, I meant 'survived the War of the Jewels'  ;)

Besides, if I may, I would like to add to the debate what a not specified Messenger of Manwë (what if it were Eönwë?) says in front of Fëanor to try to confront his madness, prior to the Kinslaying and the Destiny of Mandos.

Zitat
But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'
J.R.R. Tolkien – The Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor.

We can clearly extrapolate what the Valar had always foreseen about any kind of attempt to rebel against their authority.
Especially, that final line is a real wound to Fëanor's pride, I would say  8-)
Well deserved, I say, for having thought and said all those horrible things referring to the Noldor's (Eldar's) true benefactors.
« Letzte Änderung: 20. Feb 2016, 18:31 von DieWalküre »

VectorMaximus

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #7 am: 20. Feb 2016, 20:33 »
Personally I believe that Finarfin would step down for his father once he was reincarnated, but that's just my personal opinion. I don't believe that the exile automatically causes them to lose all their standing in Aman. While the Valar may be the final authority, the Noldor have a right to choice who are their kings, of which Finwe was their first chosen lord and King. In addition, Finwe did not rebel against the Valar and in fact tried to temper his people in their sayings against them.

About the Noldor never being able to defeat a Vala; Morgoth eventually becomes so weak by spreading out his powers amongst his servants that he cannot change form any longer and his body cannot heal. Combine this with the fact that an Elda (Fingolfin) was able to permanently wound him, it seems that eventually the Noldor, if Feanor had not sundered himself from Fingolfin, may have eventually been able to disincarnate Morgoth. At that point he would have been easy picking for the Valar. Now, obviously when the Valar proclaimed their warning, the Noldor stood no shot, because Morgoth was not shape-shifter locked then, and much stronger. However, no unweakened Vala could be defeated by an elf, this is true.

And Adamin, I edited in a section on the Oath.
« Letzte Änderung: 21. Feb 2016, 16:49 von VectorMaximus »
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #8 am: 20. Feb 2016, 23:22 »
What if neither Finwë nor Fingolfin never had the intention of claiming that title?
Especially – given that I always pictured in my mind Finwë forever 'assisting' his most beloved son in the Halls of Mandos – Fingolfin, the noble and valiant, would never be interested in that position anymore, because he nonetheless had to face death and the consequent redemption to be accepted again in Valinor; even though no terrible crimes can be accountable to him (at least, not to his direct will), I guess he is surely aware of the Rebellion he took part, the Kinslaying and the Exile from the Immortal Lands that later occurred.
So, I believe Fingolfin would just accept his destiny and the fact that Finarfin was exactly crowned king due to his untainted loyalty.
There are various possible speculations that we can make; this is the interesting aspect of these debates  ;)

I would take that line from the Messenger of Manwë as quite lapidary and absolute.
No Elf, Dwarf or Human could ever kill a Vala, no matter how weakened it could be.
Consider that Morgoth had already his powers seriously diminished when he fought against Fingolfin, being eventually able to kill the Noldorin King.
Moreover, even in Morgoth's ultimate moment of defeat, only Eönwë (the Chief of the Maiar of Aman) had the power to confront him and bind him with Angainor; not to mention that all the previous defeats of Melkor are accountable to Tulkas only (a Vala).
I would legitimately think that no Vala could ever be taken down by anyone else but an Ainu  :)

VectorMaximus

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #9 am: 20. Feb 2016, 23:33 »
Yeah, I guess its unlikely either Fingolfin or Finwe would want the position anymore to be honest, after all the grief and stress it brought them. I hadn't really thought about Finwe staying in the halls to help Feanor, but that really seems just like him, so I'll buy it.

First off, I want to make sure that when you say kill a Vala, you mean disincarnate (destroy their physical body). I guess we will just have to disagree, but I do feel like I need to clarify; even weakened, no single Elf, no matter how strong, could win against Morgoth. However, (again my personal view) if the 'mighty' among the Eldar such as Ingwe, Feanor, Fingolfin, and Elu Thingol were to unite (not likely, but theoretically) and attack as one, they could together defeat Morgoth. And it takes a lot more strength to actually bind Morgoth, in my opinion (after all, you have to fight his strength the whole time you are binding him), whereas you just need 1 or 2 lucky strikes when you are aiming to kill. Elves have killed Maia before - Gothmog, Ungoliant, various Balrogs, etc, though there is such a massive power disparity between the Vala and Maia that argument has almost no bearing. However, isn't Turin, a mere mortal man, prophesized to be the one that kills Morgoth at last forever?
« Letzte Änderung: 21. Feb 2016, 00:02 von VectorMaximus »
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Walküre

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #10 am: 21. Feb 2016, 00:25 »
Well, I didn't expect you would have dealt with so precise and structured technicalities in what-if battle scenarios  :P
Anyway, with all the respect you know I have for our heroic Elven Lords, I still think a Vala – especially Morgoth who was originally the mightiest Vala – would win everyone of them.
And I agree with you, the Valar are definitely on another level even compared to the People they rule over, the Maiar.

Túrin is a kind of not conventional option, if I can say so, defined by particular elements.
A prophecy about the End of Arda, an Ultimate Battle and Melkor and all his servants at full strength...
Definitely not the usual scenario we have experience of  xD

VectorMaximus

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #11 am: 21. Feb 2016, 00:30 »
Fair enough Walk, fair enough. :D

On Turin, even if the scenario is completely out of the ordinary, which I absolutely agreed with you on, I just had to throw it in to contradict your statement that no man could kill a Vala. :P

Also, about thinking so much about the technicalities of the battle scenario... Welcome to my mind, its a very scary place. [uglybunti]
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Walküre

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #12 am: 21. Feb 2016, 14:17 »
Also, about thinking so much about the technicalities of the battle scenario... Welcome to my mind, its a very scary place. [uglybunti]

You are in the right place, then, to develop your creativity  :P

Besides, what do you think about the choice of Fëanor of calling as witnesses to his Oath the two mightiest Valar, Manwë and Varda, King and Queen of Arda?
Am I the only one who regards it also as a sort of provocation?

The Oath itself is full of pure hatred and madness, I would say.
Fëanor openly admits he would even go against and kill anyone who opposes him, regardless of the fact that he could violate the authority of Valinor or kill innocent people (as he actually did).

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #13 am: 21. Feb 2016, 15:21 »
Morgoth eventually becomes so weak, spreading out his powers, that he cannot change form any longer, and his body cannot heal.

I think that is the critical point in your thinking VectorMaximus.
During the Ruin of Beleriand Morgoths power was dispersed in his minions and all evil in Middleearth. He was diminished, not only unable to change his phyical body, but also unable to heal it. Thus he was bound to his body in a way that no other Vala ever was. And he was pretty beaten up after the duel with Fingolfin: Seven sword wounds, one stabbed foot, and a scratched up face.

Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made.

Not to mention the ever burning Silmarils on his head. So I'd say it's totally possible that a super team of the mightiest Eldar might have been able to defeat Morgoth and kill him (or rather his body) during that time.
After all, something similar happened some thousand years later, when Sauron was defeated and killed in combat by a team of the then mightiest Heroes (Gil-Galad, Elendil, Elrond, Cirdan, Isildur).

The only problem with that would have been the aforementioned Oath of Fëanor. Because of its boundlessness to go against anybody who could claim the Silmarils, the Noldor could have never trusted each other far enough to form such a team.

But I think we better should talk about this as soon as you arrive at those points of the history in your summary VectorMaximus. ^^

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Re: The History of the Noldor
« Antwort #14 am: 21. Feb 2016, 15:28 »
That was a very interesting read Vector :)
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