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#15 von Walküre am 08 Mär, 2016 10:03
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Ok, I changed the title of the topic
Now, it will embrace also our fan-made scripts, not solely related to the Silmarillion (even though this is my primary interest).
Yes, hoho, I too think something valuable could be concretely made about Beren and Lúthien only, albeit understanding that, in this case, a lot of references about the past and current (of that time) setting of the events (Valinor, the Two Trees, the War of the Jewels,...) would be necessarily left out of the plot, or mentioned in a very brief way.
That's why I think a trilogy or saga consisting of long – very long – chapters which will manage to cope with all the said cinematographic issues will be the revolutionary phenomenon of the century's motion picture
But, we must not lose hope
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#16 von Fine am 08 Mär, 2016 10:17
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I always imagined the story of Tuor (and Earendil) to be a very good possibility for a film adaption. If someone wanted to make a trilogy, the story could be split up like this:
1) The first film would tell the story of Tuor's journey to Gondolin, covering his youth in Hithlum and his travels through Nevrast and Beleriand, with the Orc ambush near the Sirion being the climax of the film. At the beginning, a short prologue about the Nirnaeth Arnoediad could be used to introduce the characters of Turgon and Huor and their fateful connection. The film would end with Tuor being escorted into the Hidden Valley. The main characters would be Tuor and Voronwe.
2) The second film would be about Tuor's life in Gondolin, with the battle and fall of the city being the climax. The prologue could be about Aredhel and provide the backstory for the main antagonist, Maeglin. The main characters would be Tuor, Turgon, Idril and Maeglin.
3) The third film would be about Earendil and Elwing, with Tuor fading into the background. The main character here would be Earendil.
I think those three films would work well as a cohesive narrative and would not require much background knowledge, I believe. -
#17 von aminetude am 08 Mär, 2016 16:16
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I always imagined the story of Tuor (and Earendil) to be a very good possibility for a film adaption. If someone wanted to make a trilogy, the story could be split up like this:
I like this, very much ! Now we only need a competent director to take up arms and start making the movies
1) The first film would tell the story of Tuor's journey to Gondolin, covering his youth in Hithlum and his travels through Nevrast and Beleriand, with the Orc ambush near the Sirion being the climax of the film. At the beginning, a short prologue about the Nirnaeth Arnoediad could be used to introduce the characters of Turgon and Huor and their fateful connection. The film would end with Tuor being escorted into the Hidden Valley. The main characters would be Tuor and Voronwe.
2) The second film would be about Tuor's life in Gondolin, with the battle and fall of the city being the climax. The prologue could be about Aredhel and provide the backstory for the main antagonist, Maeglin. The main characters would be Tuor, Turgon, Idril and Maeglin.
3) The third film would be about Earendil and Elwing, with Tuor fading into the background. The main character here would be Earendil.
I think those three films would work well as a cohesive narrative and would not require much background knowledge, I believe. hahahaha
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#18 von VectorMaximus am 08 Mär, 2016 19:42
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I always imagined the story of Tuor (and Earendil) to be a very good possibility for a film adaption. If someone wanted to make a trilogy, the story could be split up like this:
I like this, very much ! Now we only need a competent director to take up arms and start making the movies
1) The first film would tell the story of Tuor's journey to Gondolin, covering his youth in Hithlum and his travels through Nevrast and Beleriand, with the Orc ambush near the Sirion being the climax of the film. At the beginning, a short prologue about the Nirnaeth Arnoediad could be used to introduce the characters of Turgon and Huor and their fateful connection. The film would end with Tuor being escorted into the Hidden Valley. The main characters would be Tuor and Voronwe.
2) The second film would be about Tuor's life in Gondolin, with the battle and fall of the city being the climax. The prologue could be about Aredhel and provide the backstory for the main antagonist, Maeglin. The main characters would be Tuor, Turgon, Idril and Maeglin.
3) The third film would be about Earendil and Elwing, with Tuor fading into the background. The main character here would be Earendil.
I think those three films would work well as a cohesive narrative and would not require much background knowledge, I believe. hahahaha
I fully support this, but good luck getting Christopher Tolkien to let you make it! (Course, there's always the nonprofit route, but I would rather have a full scale production for any further Tolkien movies)
I also feel like a really good way of doing a Silmarillion movie is having Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond telling tales of the past ages to Frodo and Bilbo on their trip westward. Have them commentate over the actions occuring most of the time, except in drastic moments such as the Oath of Feanor. This way it would be possible to maintain the more 'commentative' nature of the Silmarillion, rather than a direct story. -
#19 von Melkor Bauglir am 08 Mär, 2016 22:46
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That's actually funny, because I seem to be the only one who never, ever wants another cinematic realization of Middle Earth.
"Why?", you may ask with all the rights to do so.
I'd like to point out, that it's not because I fancy the Hobbit trilogie simply as a cinematic desaster -that is indeed true for a variety of very fundamental thoughts, much too numerous to write them down here. However it has actually nothing to do with it, it's something entirely different and I already see the cry of outrage:
I don't think that (from a dramatic point of view) Tolkien's work is that great, apart from (obviously) the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit and to an extent the Children of Húrin. Now, this statement may create a number of bitter enemies, but let me at least try to explain. This will be of course entirely subjective, so I don't expect anyone to follow me with this one.
Tolkien's strength as an author lies in my opinion for the most part (see above) mainly in the complexity of his world. The fact, that his stories stretch out for entire eras involving an enormous cast of people is what makes them truely interesting. It is certainly not for their characters -there are well-written ones, but they appear mostly in the more novel-like books and not in the more tale-like books -which the Silmarillion more or less is. Nearly everyone there is pretty one-dimensional: They have kind of decided what is good or evil, they are brave or a coward and they work on one goal -that's it. The curious think is that, with all this gigantic war going on and numerous things happening technically at the time, it feels extremely linear and more or less (and I can't emphasize enough, that I'm talking about the dramatic way of storytelling, not the effort that was put into this world untill everything worked!!!) dull.
Now this sounds extremely harsh, but I'm sure everyone can agree to a certain extent to points like how there is basically no character motivation (because Melkor / Morgoth decided to be evil (because Lucipher) and so it was) or people / beings were just corrupted by evil without any specific motivation, Feanor's sons becoming absolute madmen about their oath never changing in what was literally centuries or elves and men just merrily sitting for 400 (!) freaking years doing nothing the entire time (apart from fending of two (?) assaults from Angband). Such sloppiness just stands out for me, it's a theme that again returns in the timeline of Dol Guldur when the White Counsil just does nothing -first for the ridiculous time of 960, then again for almost 400 years -I don't have to remind anyone, that Galadriel basically lives around the corner.
These (and believe me, A LOT MORE!) are all points which IMO don't really show Tolkien as a great writer -I literally think that in my circumstances, something just happens without a real cause-and-effect-relation.
Now, please note that this isn't meant as "hating" or not respecting his work. Personally, I see this basically as judging them fairly, because IMO his works are far from being perfect. His abilities to create worlds, fully functional with languages, cultures, bloodlines and their own pantheon, the known devices and so on, together with these three great stories, make him... well, a legend of literature.
This is not for all the mentioned things above, about which I could go on for a while. Again, why does this translate to me not wanting another Middle Earth movie?
It's because I basically think this sage-like stories are simply not coherent or able to be used for cinema! They offer basically nothing from a cinematic perspective and I just can't think about anythink worse then either a trilogy-long (since nowadays everything has to be a trilogy... Long live the mammon.) or something that just looses focus and becomes blurred because too much has to be added in order to work on a cinematic level.
Then I'd rather just enjoy the brilliant LotR-films, laugh about the Hobbit-movies from time to time when I just need complete non-sense delivered with the directors intention for me to care and apart from that "celebrate" Tolkien for what he has done -create a practically unparalleled complex universe. I'm simply not going to praise his works for something they aren't!
Greetings
Melkor Bauglir -
#20 von hoho96 am 08 Mär, 2016 23:05
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and for also all those reasons I don't want a Silmarilion movie at all. And that's why I've suggested a complete made up movie characters that would be interesting in a movie, but still fit perfectly the Middle Earth universe setup.
I absolutely don't want to see another Peter Jackson take on Middle Earth (it's becoming pretty much similar to the situation of Lucas with Star Wars). -
#21 von bookworm1138 am 08 Mär, 2016 23:50
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I personally would like a movie or television series about the War against Angmar (especially one that would do the story justice, after what Peter Jackson did to it in the Hobbit films). It could start at the end and focus on Arvedui and Aranarth, with appearances by Gandalf, Cirdan, (maybe even Elrond), Glorfindel and the Hobbits (there was a legend that Hobbits fought at the last battle of Fornost Erain during the War in the North), and it would have plenty of room to expound upon the characters of Aragorn's ancestors, showing Aranarth developing from a young and inexperienced prince to becoming the Chieftain of the Rangers and taking on the burden of leading his people after their homes were devastated.
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#22 von Walküre am 09 Mär, 2016 00:00
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Ok, Melkor, that was intense
And, no, I don't think any of us will really be mad at you just because you did what this forum just exists for: expressing opinions
Nevertheless, albeit respecting your opinion, I reckon there is so much resentment towards the Hobbit trilogy from you, set aside its flaws and distorted aspects
But, given that it's a personal opinion and that a sufficient (very sufficient) number of posts has dealt with this matter in this forum (even though, I don't know why, I guess they won't ever be enough), I don't want to discuss further about it, also because the topic involves a slightly different theme.
Let's talk about, instead, how you tried to dismantle my beloved Silmarillion![[ugly]](https://modding-union.com/Smileys/mu/ugly.gif)
Since the thread doesn't address the pure and direct characteristics of the Silmarillion as the centre of discussion, I don't want to indulge very much in the issue, as we can always move to the Lore Corner or start a new thread about it, and I will thus try to answer briefly.
I honestly never thought that the Silmarillion is really so majestic for its intrinsic superb and excellent stylistic structure (actually, it was welcomed very coldly, if not negatively, by the critics at the time it was published).
Its majestic element lies essentially in its innovative and revolutionary typology, that of a Mythopoeia, resembling the ancient Greek cosmogony myths.
In this, the Silmarillion (seen in the holistic context of the Tolkien's production) is probably the sole, or the only successful 'experiment', mythopoeic book of the modern/contemporary era.
Its style is objectively sublime (almost 'disturbing' at times), I admit, but that is caused by the themes dealt with, resulting in a specific tone.
Like, for example (if you are acquainted with a bit of medieval Italian literature), the Paradise of Dante's Divina Commedia, where the matters involved make its tone far superior, higher and sublime than the one of the other two chapters (especially the fictional abominations of the Inferno).
The Silmarillion is exactly more metaphysical and superior compared to the other texts.
In very simple words, Mythopoeia is something different from novels, and absolutely more sublime than tales.
Basically, it's the creation of an entire mythical Universe (that's why cosmogony-like themes are very recurrent), with solid roots in fundamental aspects, characteristics and hierarchies that define the hierarchical and existential structure of the same Universe.
The most significant factor is that this mythopoeic creation gives birth to a world in which anything, from the smallest details to the most complicated aspects, is necessarily bound and loyally coherent to the foundations of this very Universe, ending up with the definition of that common law of the Tolkien's production I usually refer to.
Everything derived from this Mythopoeia will be deeply intertwined among itself, with order and admirable rational logic.
I think you should, then, look at the Silmarillion having in mind these aspects and this deep and pervasive coherence.
I'm sure you will find answers to your questions
Picking some of them.
1. The Oath was not something so simple to break since it was sworn directly to Ilúvatar, with Manwë and Varda as witnesses.
2. The Noldor don't get immediately mad for no reasons; there are some subtle elements involved that don't refer solely to Fëanor or the Silmarils themselves.
And you, Melkor, are directly involved too in the discord among them
3. Melkor is evil both by choice and by destiny.
It's a bit complicated to explain, but it's also a recurrent theme in Christianity.
Melkor chose to follow the path of the evil by his free will, but this is something Ilúvatar has always known/foreseen from the beginning with its Omniscience, and the Evil is a necessary part of the Universe just like the Good is, so that the Evil is metaphysically necessary.
Only Eru knows the final fate of all things.
Ok, it was not so brief
I hope I was clear, though.
Regarding upcoming films, it is pretty taken for granted that a possible film about the Silmarillion doesn't necessarily have to follow PJ's style.
LOTR was taken as an example due to its revolutionary and majestic aspects that made it reach legend.
It would be similarly revolutionary coming out with something suitable even for the Silmarillion, and it's pretty clear that this said Majesty would certainly require the creation of the iconically monumental trilogies and sagas that we love so much (at least, the sole LOTR)
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#23 von Adamin am 09 Mär, 2016 09:30
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I don't think that (from a dramatic point of view) Tolkien's work is that great, apart from (obviously) the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit and to an extent the Children of Húrin.
I will gladly adress all your Points in the Lore Corner as soon as I have a proper Computer (right now I'm on travelling gear), because as far as I see it, everything you mention is actually explained in the Silmarillion.
As you said it yourself: Tolkien was great at building worlds, and he very well knew that character motivation is also part of this world.
He was so good in fact, that he wrote the mythological legends of his world in a totally believable mythical style, as Val already said. Read the original Texts of Beowulf or the Siegfried Saga and you'll find stylistic similarities to the Silmarillion.
The "Problem" is that because of this the Silmarillion is actually hard to read, but just the same very much worth it.
On Topic:
Since there is no way that the Silmarillion stories will ever be adapted (in at least the next 80 years), I would actually like to see some "fanfiction" in movie form, so originally written tales. Why not get into some stories from earlier Third Age Stories?
Why not tell the adventures of Young Aragorn, wandering through Middle-earth as Thorongil, serving in the armies of Rohan and Gondor (where he met Theoden and Denethor by the way)?
That could be a great adventure movie, like Indiana Jones, or Pirates of the Caribbean.
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#24 von Melkor Bauglir am 09 Mär, 2016 14:02
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Zitat
I will gladly adress all your Points in the Lore Corner as soon as I have a proper Computer (right now I'm on travelling gear), because as far as I see it, everything you mention is actually explained in the Silmarillion.
I am curious to read this. However to be perfectly honest, I doubt, that these logical problems can be explained. As I was saying: The points I already mentioned where just the ones I could remember quickly enough.
@DieWalküre:
I am well aware of this mythical tone. This does however say nothing about Tolkien's qualities as a dramatic writer: As I was saying, I see the strengths and achievements of the Silmarillion and numerous other stories from Middle Earth. This does not make them particularly well written from a critics point of view who focusses on the suspense (like how it is built up, sudden reveals about a character,...).
I have read about two to three versions of the most classic Greek myths as well as a ton of German saga which enables me to say: Yes, the Silmarillion is written a lot like these stories. And again, those are really entertaining and actually surprising how intertwined they are, nevertheless their strength as well isn't (for the most part) a thrilling suspension which completely absorbs you. Again this may sound like an utterly trivial example, but if a dragon appears in such a saga, you can bet money the story's hero is going to kill it. This takes nothing away from the complexity of the story or how it is connected to the real world ("mythical" places which are explained via a legend), but it makes the suspension curve rather predictable. Again, character motivations are often pretty basic (young brave male hero who is brave by birth, does brave things and sometimes dies, often by treason -Hercules, Siegfried, even Gawain if I'm not mistaken share this characteristic with people like Earnur, Barahir or Fingon (easterlings ftw)).
Trust me, I know very well what I am talking about and again this doesn't improve Tolkien's qualities if we are only talking about the dramatic qualities of the story. OK, maybe I can further improve my point: Since I am coming to realize that these legends share the same characteristics, this makes Tolkien no bad writer since his stories are written exactly the way they need to be written. This still changes nothing about the dramatic quality of the stories themselves!Zitat1. The Oath was not something so simple to break since it was sworn directly to Ilúvatar, with Manwë and Varda as witnesses.
2. The Noldor don't get immediately mad for no reasons; there are some subtle elements involved that don't refer solely to Fëanor or the Silmarils themselves.
And you, Melkor, are directly involved too in the discord among them
3. Melkor is evil both by choice and by destiny.
It's a bit complicated to explain, but it's also a recurrent theme in Christianity.
Melkor chose to follow the path of the evil by his free will, but this is something Ilúvatar has always known/foreseen from the beginning with its Omniscience, and the Evil is a necessary part of the Universe just like the Good is, so that the Evil is metaphysically necessary.
Well... I don't see anything really contradicting my statements. If my alter ego is destined to become evil there goes basically his entire character motivation. I realize it has to be this way and I don't really mind Morgoth as the villain, still in this case the implied religious element of Melkor vs. Manwe makes his character pretty predictable. Again: Villains like Saurons are often written extraordinarily well when it comes to their devices or the "subtle" criticism towards technology and progress, yet their motivations are extremely flat.
And yes, if I am swearing an oath in complete madness which leads to everyone hating me for doing so (especially the ones I did swear this oath to), after I than proceeded to do absolutely nothing for the enternity of 400 years in which I built up my kingdoms and enjoyed Middle Earth, if I'd than proceed to not only completely fail but to slaughter not 1 but two basically already destroyed realms, than enjoy the help of the guys I did swear this oath two saving me from destruction (all on the basis of someone I kind of hunted down...) and after that still dare to think that the oath was a good idea / Manwe, Varda and Co. even want me to continue fighting for it and continue laying waste to the ones guarding the Silmaril... Well, that's what I call determination!![[uglybunti]](https://modding-union.com/Smileys/mu/ugly2.gif)
To conclude, I think it might be better to continue the debate about Tolkien's qualities as a writer somewhere else, in my original post I needed this thoughts to explain why I don't want another Middle Earth movie, however now we basically have a whole new topic.
Maybe you should move this debate from this post onward into the Lore Corner, DieWalküre (please not my last post, that was clearly connected to the original topic.)?
Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
PS: I indeed started the Divina Commedia / Göttliche Kömödie, yet stopped reading any further about one quarter into it. I just couldn't stand the cruelty of the basic setting which sounds rather surprising since it isn't any more cruel than say Hector's funeral ceremony done by Achilles (if you know what I'm talking about...), however to really explain my points it would require me to break the forum's rule and definitely the positive climate around here.
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#25 von Walküre am 09 Mär, 2016 15:47
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Oh no, Melkor, don't tell me that you want to dismantle also the Divina Commedia, that is widely regarded as the greatest literary work of the Italian literature of all times, considered as a monumental summary of all the medieval knowledge of the past millennium
Probably, you couldn't bear the abominations (as I wrote above) of the Inferno (Hell), the first chapter.
I can assure you that the situation in the Paradiso gets far holier (even though everything gets consequently so much intricate, metaphysically and theologically).
Anyway, I quite understand what you may have suffered, since many other Italian students have to face that fate given that all three chapters are mandatory in High School
Ok, I will be more than happy to establish a new debate in the Lore Corner, or join another similar proposition in case one did the same thing
And, Melkor, I agree with Adamin that your questions could be indeed answered if you followed carefully the rational foundations of the mythical narration.
I think your wrong (in my opinion) judgements are based on a too novel-oriented reasoning, while the nature of the Silmarillion responds to other rules. -
#26 von Adamin am 09 Mär, 2016 21:34
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Shame on both of you for not posting anything Topic-related.
I at least had one Paragraph concerning new Middle earth Movies!
Want another one?
What about the adventures of Elladan and Elrohir? The sons of Elrond seemed so super busy in the books, always being somewhere, helping the Dunedain. How about a movie concerning one of their jorneys into the wild North? -
#27 von Fredius am 09 Mär, 2016 21:57
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Well they had a part in the fan made Born of Hope movie.
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#28 von Adamin am 09 Mär, 2016 22:32
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Yeah, and I liked the movie (as well as the Hunt for Gollum), but they were just "Extras" there. I would like to see them as the main characters of a wild Adventure. ^^
Maybe a tale of how Elladan wanted to avenge his mother and thus lured his brother into the misty mountains on a Scout Mission, just to kill as many orcs as possible. Elrohir goes along at first, but realizes his Brothers pain just in time to save him from the fangs of a great beast of the mountain, and his own death.
Something like that. ^^ -
#29 von aminetude am 10 Mär, 2016 23:29
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Yeah, and I liked the movie (as well as the Hunt for Gollum), but they were just "Extras" there. I would like to see them as the main characters of a wild Adventure. ^^
I actually liked these fan made movies too, even if they werent graphicly very good, but those people really did a good job trying to make them, it would be really wonderful to encourage other fans of creatins such short videos. If i had the opportunity, i would do something about the forging of the rings of power, having Celembribor, Annatar ( Sauron ), Galadriel , Elrond and Cirdan as main charachters, some dwarf lords will also add a nice touch. If only i could
Maybe a tale of how Elladan wanted to avenge his mother and thus lured his brother into the misty mountains on a Scout Mission, just to kill as many orcs as possible. Elrohir goes along at first, but realizes his Brothers pain just in time to save him from the fangs of a great beast of the mountain, and his own death.
Something like that. ^^