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Autor Thema: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade  (Gelesen 4586 mal)

Azog The Defiler

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Now in this idea i want to give the trolls a different armor based on which upgrade you choose. The different armors give different bonus relevant to your upgrade.

This would massively improve the use of trolls. Currently its a little too complicated to get the trolls to their full potential. Now you first have to use influence, then upgrade them once and then again.
The way this usually plays out is that you upgrade them once and then you have alot of other stuff to focus on and often you forget which trolls are upgraded with what. (ofc you can see their weapon, but sometimes it doesnt even show it that well.)
If there was only one upgrade and the trolls would look different, it would not only improve the gameplay alot, but also the ecxperience of the game.

The idea

Armor and weapons

Mollock
« Letzte Änderung: 1. Mai 2016, 18:33 von Azog The Defiler »
Elves! Men! Dwarves! The mountain will be their tomb! To war!

Fredius

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #1 am: 8. Mär 2016, 15:26 »
I... actually find this a pretty good idea. I agree that the trolls are kinda too complicated right now, and are imo not really worth the money and time during a match.

Hamanathnath

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #2 am: 8. Mär 2016, 16:41 »
Definitely an interesting idea, however I do not agree that their weapon should make them have a different armor bonus.  Also, I do not think Mollock should be removed from the game.  He just needs to be improved. 

As for the visuals, I wouldn't mind seeing them in the game, but I don't think the trolls stats should be affected by these visuals. 

Again, if Misty Mountains do get a Dul Guldur unit summon, I'd love to see some of the BOTFA trolls in there.

Azog The Defiler

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #3 am: 8. Mär 2016, 19:30 »
Its one of the main points to further improve their use, i mean different armor bonus for each upgrade.
And i dont think MM will be getting such a summon, according to lore they didnt have anything to do with DG, so theres that:/
But i think this would be the best way to include the epic botfa trolls, a way that actually makes sense improving the gameplay.

But to make the point clearer.

Hammer with Morgul armor bonus vs arrows, cause they are used most when breaching a fortress and destroying buildings, and there will be alot of archers on the wall

Wooden mace with DG armor bonus vs spears, cause they are used in the open, where people often use spearmen to counter you.

Sword with Morannon armor, so you can fight single targets and heroes better.
Elves! Men! Dwarves! The mountain will be their tomb! To war!

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #4 am: 8. Mär 2016, 23:25 »
Great idea, for the majority!
The concept actually solves a fair number of (unnecessary) problems trolls have atm, so this is a decent improvement. Granted that we don't know if the BotFA-armor will be included and if at all, for Mordor, but even without it, I like your proposal. (I had actually thought about something like that myself. :D)
The only part I don't like that much is a separation between mountain trolls and Olog-Hai, because that would again make the matter more complicated, and also Mollok should definitely stay -he his kind of semi-canon, since he appears in the movie.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Azog The Defiler

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #5 am: 9. Mär 2016, 19:41 »
Glad you guys agree!:)
And yea youre right it would just make it complicated, which is the problem atm..:D
Elves! Men! Dwarves! The mountain will be their tomb! To war!

lord_ellessar

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #6 am: 2. Mai 2016, 09:14 »
I agree with this idea  :)
Folks of middle earth




Fredius

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #7 am: 2. Mai 2016, 13:20 »
Uhm it seems I gave my own twist to the idea on moddb xD. However what do you guys actually think about this? Quoted from moddb:

Zitat
If you buy the Dol Guldur Armor, the Troll will get a club and increased damage against units. If you buy Morgul Armor, the Troll will get a hammer and increased damage against buildings. If you buy the Morannon armor, the Troll will get a sword and is strong against heroes.

In any case this will solve the problem of having to buy too many upgrades for the Trolls (buy the Troll, then the armor, then the weapon), and as a bonus it will make them compliment each of Mordors realms.

Now the problem with the Morannon armor is that Mollock's unique look won't be so unique anymore :P. I found a more "stripped" version of his Armor, which should still give Mollock an unique feeling (removing the spikes on his arm guard ofcourse):


What do you guys think?


Azog The Defiler

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #8 am: 4. Mai 2016, 15:21 »
Hmm, if mollock wont be removed, i think they should just make another armor for the sword upgrade. There are many options provided from cah.

So either remove mollock and use his armor for the sword upgrade, or just make a new armor from cah.
If the trolls would get a buff there wouldnt necessarily be that much need for a massslayer hero such as Mollock.
Elves! Men! Dwarves! The mountain will be their tomb! To war!

Fredius

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #9 am: 4. Mai 2016, 15:37 »
Oh my bad, I didn't explain it properly. The armor on the picture I showed was for the sword upgrade troll, not for Mollock. The reason I proposed the armor on that picture is because it kinda resembles a less-armored version of Mollock's armor, which would fit in nicely with the sword upgrade.

But yeah using armor from the CAH is also possible, which one do you prefer?

Azog The Defiler

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #10 am: 4. Mai 2016, 16:04 »
As i said, i think Mollock should be removed, and his armor used for this purpose.

But since that probably wont happen, i think Cah would be a better way to go :D
Elves! Men! Dwarves! The mountain will be their tomb! To war!

MrMef

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #11 am: 4. Dez 2016, 23:38 »
I think i might have a good proposal for this:
instead of making the armors an upgrade, give the troll baracks 2 new units, i always liked seeing mordor as the only faction without upgrades.

Guldur Battle troll: troll armed with Dol Guldur armor and the mace to get the blast radius bonus
these would have a hight cost since they come fully upgraded

Morgul Olog hai: troll armed with the Minas tirith breach armor, now since this troll is olog hai it can toggle weapons between the hammer and the sword to get different bonuses.
these would have very hight cost since you also have the ability to toggle weapons.

I think this would work perfectly gameplay aswell as lorewise, wouldnt you agree?

The Witch-King of Angmar

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #12 am: 25. Dez 2016, 20:52 »
I like your idea, if Dol Guldur's trolls didnt make it to Misty Mountains' spell book then i would support your idea to see more things from the films in the mod and to make the trolls system better, but i think MinathMorgol's torlls and  Dol Guldur's trolls should have something to do with Dol Guldur and Minath Morgol outposts, its not likely that you cant get those trolls out without getting the outposts yet so i think maybe its better if you cant get Dol Guldur trolls without first building Dol Guldur outpost and same thing for Minath Morgol, or you can have them recruitable from the outposts.

WarOfTheRingVeteran

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #13 am: 26. Dez 2016, 00:01 »
I definitely like this idea :)

Hehe, I like how you used this as a way to touch on the Botfa armor.. ;) (I'm neutral on that one, just to say!)

Julio229

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #14 am: 26. Dez 2016, 00:13 »
I agree with this idea, but I don't think Mollok should be removed. He appears in the movies, and I don't think he isn't needed in Mordor. He needs improvements, of course, but he fits for me. Also, removing him would also mean that only one troll hero (Tom, Bert and Bill) will be available, and Mordor should have a troll hero in my opinion. Buhrdur was removed and Rogash has been demoted to a summon, so removing another Troll hero wouldn't be something I'd be fond of.


Walküre

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #15 am: 26. Dez 2016, 16:31 »
Hehe, I like how you used this as a way to touch on the Botfa armor.. ;) (I'm neutral on that one, just to say!)

Hints to BOTFA (concerning the Goblins or Mordor, in particular) in this forum can often be hermetic and a bit subtle indeed  ;)

With the last faction getting inevitably closer, I expect them to sprout throughout the boards of Modding Union. Something I would deem absolutely positive.

Azog The Defiler

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #16 am: 18. Jun 2017, 12:04 »
Thanks for the reply`s everyone!:D
But i came up with an easier an maybe even more simple suitable solution:

I think that the trolls of mordor should have only one upgrade, this upgrade would give them armor and give them the ability to switch between the mace and the hammer, ive always thought the sword to be unecessary, since you often want to use heroes or other units to kill single targets

WHY?

HOW?

Now since these trolls might be olog hai i dont see it unfitting that they could have the brains to use different weapons for different situations. (if logical reasons were needed:D)

Also i think the botfa armor should go to the misty moutains faction, i also have an idea on how to implement it there!:D
Elves! Men! Dwarves! The mountain will be their tomb! To war!

Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #17 am: 27. Jun 2017, 13:51 »
I just took a look at the English forum while procatinating in the library of my university  [ugly]
I do support that idea to make the troll-gameplay easier and give them more variety with that "simple" change. It also would add a more specific decision for the player which makes the game more interesting.
For this reason I pretty much disagree with the idea of a weapon-switch, that would just be very op. This decision has to be permanent.
If the sword-troll is useless, make him usefull! I always liked the idea that there are 3 options: building-destruction, mass-slaying and single-target-damage.
The Morannon-troll could get an ability to force heroes or single units as Beorningers to stop. This was just a spontanous idea I got from the scene at the Black Gate where Aragorn stops for a moment as he sees the troll walking right in his direction.
This ability could be named confrontation or defiance.

I would like to see the change graphically, but you should definitly put in some pictures if you suggest such a thing.
In particular the BOFTA-design could mean everything. In my oppinion there were some good designs in it, but a lot of shitty ones aswell. This Troll must look like he could take some spears, before he dies. So let me help you a bit:



As you can see, the Trolls somehow match your description: The Dol-Guldur-troll one has his whole face coverd and can´t be stabbed there, the Minas-Morgul-troll has big shoulder armory and a wide open helmet to avoid arrows from above him and the Morannon-Troll has well armoured belly and forearms.

Mollok is actually pretty useless and should be removed, because mordor already has more than enough heroes. I never build him, because it´s just not worth the ressources and attention.
The Witchking and Ring-Sauron should be the mass-slayers. Besides that he doesn´t belong to the lore and was just made up by tabletop. That would make Bill, Tom and Bert even more unique...  ;)

With Azogs permission I transleted this suggestion into German to reach out into this part of the forum aswell and made a lot of things more specific alongside of adding graphic propositions for the different trolls. I don´t have time to translate it know back into English, but will probably do it later. If someone want to translate it, feel free, I´ll see and correct it if something was missunderstood or not translated properly:
« Letzte Änderung: 29. Jun 2017, 17:47 von Isildurs Fluch »
Harad - Gesamtkonzept:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32289.0.html

Ersatz für die Elchreiter:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35514.0.html

Berittene Schützen für Imladris:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35515.0.html


Vielen Dank an CMG für Avatar und Banner...

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #18 am: 2. Jul 2017, 02:05 »
Azog and Isildur, i think the proposal you elaborated is not only good because it would introduce new design from BOTFA (the one you chosen is good and sober, in contrast to other very weird like zombie-troll,giant-bats and other strange creatures coming from the last movie  [ugly]) but also because it is a very smart way to improve the troll system, allowing the player to quickly upgrade his/her troll army.
Furthermore, the general idea goes towards the new standard of edain 4: diversification and specific tasks for units and heroes. I like in particular the final version of is Isildur, in which every version has its own armor and weapon, without weapon switch. This make the role of each troll even more unique and specific.
I'm absolutely in favor of this  ;)
Regarding Mollok: I practically never use him because the reasons just stated by many people. I agree he can be removed and his design used for the troll of Morannon.

Garlodur

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #19 am: 5. Jul 2017, 13:40 »
I have only one question towards the topic: are the region-specific upgrades unlocked when you build the necessary outpost or do they seamlessly fit in the current mechanic?

I see that in Isildur's Fluch German translation the Morannon upgrade requires a regular Mordor outpost, but no such thing is specified with the Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur upgrades.

The reason for asking is that this takes the proposal a step further than just perfectly replacing the current system, and therefore apprehends me from being in favour. In my opinion it fits perfectly how Sauron's Influence unlocks the Troll armour, but a good argument can be made in favour of only unlocking the specific armour sets with the corresponding outposts. However, in this case we need to assess the effect of Sauron's Influence on the Troll Cage.

Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #20 am: 5. Jul 2017, 18:39 »
In my current version, they are all unlocked when you have build the necessary oupost, it´s just written in the first part and so I didn´t write it again when I explained the specific specialisations. But it doesn´t replace the current mechanique, it´s just adding new pssibilities.
I think it´s necessary to do that, otherwise the Player would have to many possibilities and it would just become op.
I´ll translate it in the weekend, because I have no time to do it now.

We can discuss it then in deeper manner...
Harad - Gesamtkonzept:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32289.0.html

Ersatz für die Elchreiter:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35514.0.html

Berittene Schützen für Imladris:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35515.0.html


Vielen Dank an CMG für Avatar und Banner...

Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Mordor trolls - different armor for different upgrade
« Antwort #21 am: 17. Jul 2017, 15:55 »
I´m sorry for letting you wait one week, but now I finally have time to tranbslate this suggestion into English and thus bringing it back to it´s roots.
I´m quite unsure if I can count the German and the English votes together. If it´s not allowed, please forgive me:

Suggestion improvement and visualisation of the troll-upgrades:
"What is this new devilry?"
This idea is originally from Azog the Defiler, who allowed me to modificate, specificate and translate it. After some discussion in the German section I decided to translate it back to reach out to more people...
The normal armour-upgrade changes it´s name:
Improvisational armour: The armour is only a bit weaker as at the moment, but also a bit cheaper just to balance the alternatives.
Most of the change at this point is graphically: It should look somehow improvised only containing out of a helmet and some armour-pieces, not a full fitting armour as at the moment. If possible they could use random modells so the trolls don´t look like clones. The siege-trolls at Minas Tirith are a good orientation:

The plan is to unlock specialised armour-alternatives depending on your choice of an outpost, which allow you to eliminate one option to counter your trolls. Trolls who already got an armour are let out to make things simple. The domain-armour is a bit more expensive, than the improvised one and doesn´t provide more protection against the other kinds of damage, but taking out one counter option should be worth the extra ressources.

The system should be explained either in the troll-cage or at the armour-palantir of the trolls, so the player knows the different options, before he decides which outpost he will build. This slot could be named Armour of the domains.

But now let´s get specific:
The Morgul-armour strengthens the troll against archers, and therfore his only weaknisses are now spears and certain heroes. In case of the hammer-troll it forces the opponent out of his fortress to kill those nasty trolls.
The presented style of armour fits quite nicely:
The open and wide helmet catches arrows from different directions and those big spikes help aswell. The big shoulder-plates also make sense against arrows from above.
It also fits into canon, because Minas Morgul prepared a long time for the siege of Minas Tirith and of course they knew that those different rings are perfect for archers.

The armour strengthens the troll against spears and pikes. Thus the player can send in the trolls into big crowds of enimies without fearing there might be some spears in it and therfore losing the troll instantly. This is of course very important for club-trolls.
Again the armour fits somehow, because it primarilly covers face and belly and so you would have some difficulties to find spots for your spear to hurt him.

This design is inspired by the troll at the Black Gate, who is at the moment a hero in the mod. But I am in favor of striking out Mollok for
The Morannon-armour is against heroes and units with high single-target damage (Beorniner) and can be used if the player gets a normal outpost.
Again the motto is "form follows function": The forearms are well armoured and the lower belly aswell. This of course makes a lot sense to combine with the sword-upgrade.
The sword-troll isn´t seen very often seen at the moment. To change this, I would give him an additional abbility:
Duelling: The troll can paralyse or slow down (if paralysing is to powerfull) a target.
This is also inspired by the scene at the Black Gate: At 4:18 syou can see Aragorn pausing for a moment as he hears the troll behind him roaring:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_ImViPryQ
Of course I know that PJ originally wanted to make a Aragorn vs Sauron fight, but it fits very nicely in my concept...  :P
With this the sword-troll especially when upgraded with Morannon-armour should be a usefull tool against heroes, because Mordor is missing a real Hero-killer if I have it right in the head.

I hope this concepts will be seen as an improvement for the troll-gam,eplay and the general atmosphere of the Mordor-faction, but I am very open for usefull critique...
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane

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« Letzte Änderung: 22. Jul 2017, 11:55 von Isildurs Fluch »
Harad - Gesamtkonzept:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32289.0.html

Ersatz für die Elchreiter:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35514.0.html

Berittene Schützen für Imladris:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35515.0.html


Vielen Dank an CMG für Avatar und Banner...