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Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

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Isildurs Fluch:
I never said I wanted to see the Balrog as regular hero, but there could be systems apart from the known systems.
I would suggest the following: MM is the only faction with a unit, that can pick up the ring. This unit could be the pioneer (a builder unit) or an additional one if that is ímpossible. I also could imagine some kind of a shaman-unit which can place totems on the map (like Gorkil did) and collect the ring.

In both cases the player would have 2 choices:

* Smaug: The ring is brought to the Dragon-lair and it gives Smaug a huge bonus than he is nearby (defending his precious treasure) and provides some huge plundering bonusses, because the ring strengthens Smaugs greed.
* Durins Bane: When the Balrog is summoned on an area, where the unit with the ring stands, the unit dies and instead of the normal Balrog, Durins Bane appears and stays permanently. The ring has not much effect on him, but Sauron uses it to influence the Balrog to side with him and so he is no permanently available.I´m not sure if anything of this is actually possible, but if not we may find solutions and working systems.

In one week I´ll present a more detailed concept about Trolls, Dragons and Durins Bane, when I have the time to write it in detail...

Fredius:
Speaking spefically about the Balrog part in your concept, why would the player need a special unit for it to get the Ring? Wouldn't it be better to just have the summoned Balrog pick up the ring by itself? In any case, the big problem with this concept is that the Balrog is a final tier summon, meaning that the player first has to aquire a ton of spellpoints, before he can call upon the creature. Chances are that within that time the opponent already got his hands on the Ring trough his own Ring Hero; specifically Gondor, where the player can get Boromir or Denethor for a (relatively) very cheap price. With that, the opponent could have already defeated the Misty Mountains player, before he could even get enough command points to summon the Balrog. The Misty Mountains player just has far less chances than other factions to get its Ring Hero.

And my point still stands, the problem with having the Balrog as a permanent hero, regardless of it having the Ring or not, is that it has to be significantly nerfed in its powers. Right now it can destroy armies and bases, as he should be able to, but if he becomes a permantent hero, it also means that he needs to be nerfed, so that the opponent still has a chance to win the game. Like I explained in my post before, the Balrog should in my opinion absolutely not be nerfed for this purpose. A temporary summon fits perfectly with the Balrog, because that way it doesn't need the nerf, and can remain the ancient horror it deserves to be. One might say that it can be countered by heroes like Gandalf, but not every faction has a hero or unit that can counter the Balrog.

Perhaps some other ideas will come up in the concept you are planning, but as of right now, I personally don't see any way for the Balrog to become a permanent hero (with or without Ring), because of above described arguments.

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 16. Aug 2017, 17:29 ---However, Edain has already stated that Smaug is the faction leader, so why continue on this? Smaug IS the faction leader because that is what ET chose so the discussion on the Balrog vs Smaug is irrelevant, however, the facts speak for themselves and it is obvious that the Balrog would be a more canonical leader than Smaug. To where Smaug would be more of a summon under the command of Sauron.

Since Smaug was selected, and like Elf in Silver said, all Smaug cares about is Gold, I mean he wouldn't even use the One Ring, heck he didn't even sense it in the Hobbit book. Smaug cares about quantity and not quality he never gave priority to the Arkenstone nor any other special CUP or jewel, his attention to detail lacked and the only way he would fight and ally with Sauron is threw intimidation and gold.

EDIT: In reality, I don't mind Smaug being in the MM faction, but Smaug being a ring hero makes about as much sense as Tom Bombadil being the Ring Hero for Arnor or a faction of Hobbits and Unicorns. Both characters did not care about the One Ring and both would have just ended up losing it. As evidenced by the Arkenstone being right under Smaug's gold pile and nothing was done with the Artifact that supposedly crowns all and brings the Dwarfs together.

--- Ende Zitat ---

I wouldn't list all of these reasonings as inexorable facts, given that they are opinions and speculations as much as mine or the ones of other people are. I understood that you don't oppose the choice of Smaug being the atypical leader of the faction. But I also believe that this decision has too its reasons in the lore and canons. Not Hobbits and unicorns, but a sound concept.

A concept usually has the lore, the resemblance to the films and gameplay as its prime pillars, on which everything is then constructed. While gameplay and films make the current design the wisest solution, as it was explained multiple times by the developers and for the reasons I and Fredius stated in the previous passages, the problem lies in the mazes of the lore, which both seems to favour one or the other theory. In my view, taking into account the generalities of the disenchanted Third Age and the nature of the Ainur, Smaug is the most fitting for such role, and for the whole motive of desiring the tenure of the One Ring (which I find very controversial, if it is applied to the Balrog). I question some of your conclusions, Blue, as you would probably question mine, yet I'm also conscious that this degree of thorough speculation about the lore might lead astray or make it hard to find the exact just answer; especially, if obscurity pervades these tales, the case gets inevitably tougher. And it's not rare that contradictions are present in Tolkien's writings. But I don't want to drag you in infinite debates on the canons; there is the Prancing Pony section for this purpose and I gladly invite you there, where we have all the space and means at disposal for this typology of discussions. I think it would be interesting to deal with these matters under a speculative perspective, with people with a solid knowledge as you. I gently disagree with you and I shall rest with my case.

Addressing the essence of fallen angels, they are not weaker due to their very definition of being fallen angels; they have had their nature and powers twisted and marred, of course, but in no way are they weaker just for that. Ainur have their might weakened or halved when they pour their energy into material catalysts to channel their power (like Morgoth with Arda or Sauron with the One), or when they undergo tragic events as a physical destruction of their body, which leaves wounds that may not be deleted. The act of siding with the Evil has instead no depleting influence on them, and the fact of retaining a blessed nature doesn't make one stronger either: the Balrogs were never inferior to the other Maiar by default, just like Melkor is no lesser Vala than their fellow Archangels (he was even mightier than all the other Valar combined, at the beginning of the wars between them). I thus reject the idea of weakened Balrogs, since they never faced a physical death, nor have they ever tried to channel their power in some ways via material means, therefore rendering Durin's Bane the only Maia in the Third Age on whom were not placed restrictions of any sort. This is nonetheless my personal stance, as I personally regard the broad lore. Not just lines or single events, but the broad picture.

On the other note of the topic, the most relevant for the game, I do see that you and Isildur want to come up with a decent outcome, even though you would probably have Smaug and the Balrog switch their position. As you rightly pointed out, Blue, Smaug is an omega-type character equally, and that's why a fair degree of independence from the faction will certainly benefit his actual characterisation, conveying the idea that he acts for his own interest and desire. Henceforth, although the dragon is to be a regular hero, a smart system and some restrictions will evaluate his role more, remaining the most loyal possible to the canons and the films. I just wanted to say that the planned design has too logical arguments behind, and that it's not a mere arbitrary decision.

Odysseus:
From a gameplay-perspective, both have a similar role and similar abilities, so I am personally indifferent who goes where and does what. However, we know more about Smaug than we know about Durin's Bane as a character, which makes it easier to flesh him out as a hero. I believe ET will keep Durin's Bane as a summon, but what will happen to Smaug is yet unclear.

Furthermore, I also think that Smaug is a bit easier to balance as a hero, since his kit will likely have other abilities besides straight damage output (as in the usual fashion of Edain), like a hypnotic gaze which dragons were well-known for, unlike the Balrog with his current BFME spells. He also has the ability to fly making him weaker to arrows like all fliers, although I believe, unlike Fellbeasts, his thick dragon skin will likely warrant some kind of arrow damage reduction while flying.

Generally, I believe it is easier for the team to work with Smaug as a recruitable hero since the Misty Mountains were originally designed as a faction to be able to accomodate a dragon in their roster, namely Drogoth.

I don't know if ET will stick with the original kit they planned for 4.0 Smaug, which can be seen in this old post here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two

I am just glad Edain is going to flesh out his kit more as a dragon, rather than just keep a lot of abilities that amount to ''do more damage''.

SilverElf:
The balrog doesn't desire the one ring at all. There is no where stated that he want it and that he wants to use it on anyway. The Balrog is merely waiting to morgoth to return as a said so him making a ring hero seems just weird for he would never leave moria and fight for sauron.

As for the statement that the blarog is the ruler of moria, Where did you get that from. Ever since the goblins went into moria they had an orc as leader. See azog he was the leader of moria.

"Azog, known also as the Defiler and the Pale Orc, was an orc who lived in the Third Age. He commanded the tribes of Moria from TA 2790 until his death in TA 2799. "

"Azog then called out that he had killed Thrór , and that he now ruled Moria as king. His name in runes was carved onto the brow of Thrór, forever branding it into the hearts of the Dwarves."

During that time the blarog was already walking in moria so he wasnt the ruler but it was azog. And probley during the war of the ring the goblins would have found a new commander and king of moria which isn't the balrog.

We dont know who the leader is of moria during the war of the ring. If edain adds a leader in for moria goblins it will probley just be an orc and who knows what.

An the other hand smaug. He would be perfect for a ring hero, Smaug desires gold. What is the one ring made of gold. He loves gold. He would take the ring even if he doesnt sense the power of the one ring he would still take it because it is made of gold. And once he has it the ring will do his job and make smaug stronger with the power of the ring even though smaug never intended that. So smaug being ring hero isn't that weird

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