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Autor Thema: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions  (Gelesen 15919 mal)

Offline DrHouse93

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #30 am: 10. Sep 2016, 20:46 »
I also think that Smaug shouldn't be normally recruitable, because it would be far too powerful, and he's not even related so much to the MM. However, I don't think that making his appearence be based on the One Ring only would be fair. If a match is played without the Ring (and most, if not all, the matches online are played this way), the MM player wouldn't have access to Smaug at all. So, here's my solutions:

1. As Julio proposed, there could be some steps to be done to recruit Smaug. However, this isn't a too fitting solution, to me, because, while Sauron WANTS to make his realm more powerful, Smaug doesn't give a damn. And also, this system is already used for Sauron

2. Restoring his old 3.81 tribute-system, but with some alterations: if the MM player wants to recruit Smaug, he/she can purchase some tribute carts from the Passageway of Gundabad and bring it to the Treasure Trove. This will cause Smaug to appear for a medium period of time, but with ALL his skills. When the Ring is found, should Smaug be able to get it, (other than receiving his proper boost) he would stay on the battlefield for the rest of the match (even if he's killed: his desire to reclaim it would be high enough to fight for the Misty Mountains)

This way, he would be still properly present in a game, being terribly awesome and powerful (while becoming OP with the Ring) but he won't be tied too much to the faction nor the Ring (and, if the match is played without Gollum and the MM player needs some extra power, he/she can still combine the might of Smaug and the Balrog, together with a huge host from the deep)
"Fairies are bad. I had to kill an innocent and fight my own sister to save the world, and they looked at me disgusted and left me dying. Two years later, I was revived and had to sacrifice another innocent with a Dark Ritual to save the world again. That's why I became a Succubus. And I don't regret it"
- The Khaleesi, Queen of Apocalypse and of the Succubi

Offline TheDarkOne

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #31 am: 10. Sep 2016, 20:58 »
This way, he would be still properly present in a game, being terribly awesome and powerful (while becoming OP with the Ring) but he won't be tied too much to the faction nor the Ring (and, if the match is played without Gollum and the MM player needs some extra power, he/she can still combine the might of Smaug and the Balrog, together with a huge host from the deep)

Totally agree.

Offline Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #32 am: 10. Sep 2016, 21:19 »
I really liked his tribute system in 3.8, and I actually imagined one or two tribute carts being one of the steps necessary for Smaug's recruitment, and it could work solo!

I like both ideas, either having different steps including tribute or making him accessible only through tribute until he gets the Ring would be cool and fitting.

Offline Walküre

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #33 am: 10. Sep 2016, 22:16 »
DrH's input seems to be really interesting. That system would certainly fit Smaug better than Sauron's aspirations of dominion over Middle-earth; that's because it's all centred on the great motive which is at the heart of the faction and Smaug himself: greed.

In a conceptual point of view, this proposal is theoretically more than valuable and well justified for all the reasons we have collected so far. Much also depends, though, on the intentions of the Edain Team and if they are really willing to retrieve the tribute mechanics, transposing it with the due innovations into the new Edain 4.0. As I also wrote in my previous remarks, we don't even know very much about which elements they intend to overhaul (or if they want to overhaul something in the first place). Anyway, I'm really pleased that we are debating these issues and thus creating ground for positive discussions.

When we get official news, I guess we should be able to conceive precise concepts in the suggestion boards. For now, we should continue our activity here, in this quite general thread (as its very title indicates)  :)

Offline Garlodur

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #34 am: 4. Okt 2016, 18:51 »
I have this complete concept in mind of how Smaug should have his position in the Misty Mountains, but it's quite extensive. Anyway I want share my thoughts on his levelling process.

In order to not have Smaug as a terrifically strong hero at the very start of the game, I wanted to suggest a unique levelling system: as the Goblins have to gain acces to three different realms before their full power is unleashed I thought it would be interesting to link Smaug's levels to the complete upgrading of those bases, i.e. by fully upgrading recruitment and resource buildings. In this concept I have found some interesting mechanics for this. The fourth building that completes Smaug's levelling process would be something that has to do with the special outpost for dragons/drakes.

This way Smaug will remain of low level in the first half of the game, until enough resources have been spend on upgrading the Goblin bases, as if they were some kind of lair. Smaug will thus be more willing to share his powers in service of the Goblins of the Misty Mountains. Additionally his recruitment could be tied to the special dragon/drake outpost but that might mean that in some battles he's only recruitable till late in the game.

I also have some ideas for Smaug as the Ring-Hero of the Misty Mountains. I think it would be interesting to tie his powers (damage and armour) to the amount of resources a player has, that is the more resources, the stronger he gets. This would represent his exaggerated greed because of the One Ring. The supersizing certain characteristics of the races in Middle Earth has been the base of the Dwarven Ring-Heroes, so I believe this could be a unique implementation of yet another faction's Ring-Hero.

Offline TheDarkOne

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #35 am: 5. Okt 2016, 01:14 »
I have this complete concept in mind of how Smaug should have his position in the Misty Mountains, but it's quite extensive. Anyway I want share my thoughts on his levelling process.

In order to not have Smaug as a terrifically strong hero at the very start of the game, I wanted to suggest a unique levelling system: as the Goblins have to gain acces to three different realms before their full power is unleashed I thought it would be interesting to link Smaug's levels to the complete upgrading of those bases, i.e. by fully upgrading recruitment and resource buildings. In this concept I have found some interesting mechanics for this. The fourth building that completes Smaug's levelling process would be something that has to do with the special outpost for dragons/drakes.


 He won't be available from the very beginning cause he will definetely cost a high amount of resources. The faction won't be able to summon him due to the need to gather resources and goblins will quickly spend them on structures and units, so his levelling system can remain basic. However I like your idea of linking him somehow to the dragon or drake lair on an outpost. But to a certain degree - Preventing Smaug from levelling up is a strange idea. He is not essential to the MM, being just a Dragon who may fight for an immense amount of treassure.

Offline Garlodur

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #36 am: 8. Okt 2016, 15:12 »
Thank you for your response, TheDarkOne.

In the first place, I want to clear up what I meant with the levelling system linked to upgraded buildings. This is meant to make Smaug a much less useful hero at the beginning of the game because the Misty Mountains camps won't be upgraded fully yet. This means Smaug can be recruited for the maximum amount of resources (3000) from the very start, but without investing in Goblin buildings that increase the treasure hoard Smaug would more eagerly appropriate, Smaug is barely efficient for his price. This links the personality of a dragon to the necessity of a big hoard of gold which it can defend.

In the second place, I don't think the One Ring would suit Smaug as a treasure in itself. It's quite difficult to draw a line between what Tolkien and Peter Jackson have portrayed in their versions of The Hobbit. I want to give the example of the Arkenstone. In the film this artifact is the principal reason of Thorin's dragon sickness and consequent downfall as King under the Mountain. Nevertheless being the greatest treasure in the whole mountain, Smaug sees it nothing especially worthwhile. In fact he would like to give it to Thorin to see it consume him. His stance towards this treasure is understandable because it only signifies the position of an heir of Dúrin to rule the rest of the Dwarven realms; to a dragon, this means nothing. It is arguable whether Tolkien ever wanted to put so much emphasis in a dramatic interpretation of The Hobbit, however I do think it is a valuable extrapolation of the lore.

This supports my argument that the One Ring in itself would not be considered a treasure more significant than a golden coin in Smaug's eyes. Of course it would influence his potential greed and wrath towards any who would steal from him, but it won't stop Smaug from desiring to accumulate more wealth. I therefore feel that offering the Oner Ring to Smaug would not be enough to keep him on the battlefield, were such a temporary summon system be employed.

I hope this furthers the discussion, as is always necessary with such great topics.
« Letzte Änderung: 8. Okt 2016, 18:50 von Garlodur »

Offline UdunPlayer

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #37 am: 8. Okt 2016, 18:16 »
I hope smaug get a model based in the movie design, but with dragon body (4 legs, 2 wings) instead of wyvern body (2 legs, 2 wings). I posted a comment on moddb saying that it would be cool if the edain team could use the DunedainRanger's smaug, asking of course permision. Here some pics:


I know Edain team make their own models, but I really would not like to see the old 3.8.1 smaug model. Instead, something like dunedain's model would fit the mod's philosphy of taking the best from both movies and the book. The old 3.8.1 Smaug just doesn't fit in the newest versions of the mod anymore in my opinion.

By the way, thanks to DieWalküre. He suggested me this thread in my moddb comment.  :D
« Letzte Änderung: 8. Okt 2016, 19:40 von DieWalküre »

Offline Walküre

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #38 am: 8. Okt 2016, 23:17 »
By the way, thanks to DieWalküre. He suggested me this thread in my moddb comment.  :D

Many thanks to you, on the other hand, for bringing the topic here to open discussion. And welcome to Modding Union as well! In light of the recent happenings taking place on ModDB, it has certainly been a wise choice to have moved here and the Edain Community will thus be granted the chance to debate in a more proper place  :)

Well, where to begin, I personally already stated in this thread my wish for a new model of Smaug, alongside other graphical and conceptual overhauls aimed to stick even more loyally to the whole Hobbit motive we all appreciate (I hope) very much; other great changes have already seen light during this and last year, and they were exactly meant to provide the Edain Mod with more unique and Hobbit-ish additions. Just to mention two significant ones among them: the new Iron Hills models and Thranduil's silver armour. Therefore, as the current known official news concerning the Misty Mountains came out almost three years ago, I believe there will logically be needed improvements to make before the final release and Smaug ought to be (in my opinion) included too.

The Misty Mountains shall be the last chapter of the Edain 4.0 plan. A grandiose plan that has most importantly transposed everything into the initial BFME1 mechanics and permitted great concepts from the Hobbit to find their place in the game too, on the footsteps of the end of PJ's six-film saga which exactly dealt with Middle-earth. Given that this faction will be the most Hobbit-based one of the Mod, who, if not Smaug, deserves to be the greatest possible as all the other splendid concepts from the Hobbit trilogy? The 'leader' (a particular type of leader, as we convened in the previous passages of this discussion) of the Misty Mountains is in fact one of the most prominent characters of the trilogy and the valuable motive of those films consequently underlies him all.

Regarding the model itself, as you wrote it, it's simply a very clever compromise between the cinematographic rendition of Smaug and Tolkien's four-leg concept; the latter was also the concept which WETA initially came up with, before opting for a wyvern-fashioned design. This feature (four legs) thus resolves the lore issue at the root of the matters and avoids the need of a new animation, something that would result in a very daunting task to achieve. So, yes, I'm fully for a new model of Smaug characterised by graphics more accurate towards what we watched on the big screen (his malicious face, his smile, his eyes, his smile,...). With all the due respect for the current one, a new model (entirely made, hopefully, by the Edain Team) would eventually do the right justice to the Edain 4.0 era.

That said, I once again make clear that this kind of proposals is not really common to manage, for it's easy to conceive ideas in theory but not so in practice (even if animations are not involved). Furthermore, we always have to consider that there are people with the legitimate opinion that graphical aspects should not have a so major role in the game and should thus remain secondary compared to other ones. Nevertheless, what expressed above is my pure view of things and I really hope it will finally get real someday, regardless of the time it would take. There are other magnificent suggestions in this forum whose main intention is exactly exploring deeply the valuable sides of the Hobbit trilogy, in line with the premises I illustrated above; this one is totally one of them  ;)

P.S. I edited your comment to make the images easier to handle.

Offline TheDarkOne

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #39 am: 9. Okt 2016, 18:41 »
Thank you for your response, TheDarkOne.

This supports my argument that the One Ring in itself would not be considered a treasure more significant than a golden coin in Smaug's eyes. Of course it would influence his potential greed and wrath towards any who would steal from him, but it won't stop Smaug from desiring to accumulate more wealth. I therefore feel that offering the Oner Ring to Smaug would not be enough to keep him on the battlefield, were such a temporary summon system be employed.

Now I get your point and I have to agree with it. The Ring wont be anything but a shining golden coin. However he still is considered as an upcoming ring hero for MM, so  we have no choice but to watch as everything develops by ET. They may create something fitting. I am almost sure of it.

Offline Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #40 am: 10. Okt 2016, 21:21 »
Just wanted to say, I've just finished rewatching The Hobbit trilogy for the hundredth time or so :P. They have flaws, especially BOTFA, but I like them anyways! I really want to see Misty Mountains in the mod now, I just love Goblins!

What I wanted to discuss are certain aspects of the Goblin Army in BOTFA, and I wanted to ask: Is anything known about what aspects of the BOTFA army are being included in the faction? As strange as some of them are, I love a lot of what was portrayed there.

Offline Canis carcharothias

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #41 am: 10. Okt 2016, 21:50 »
There is an old article about the units of the new Misty Mountains faction:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two

Maybe is a little bit outdated, It won't be a surprise if they add new units from BOTFA. I, personally, don't like some of the concepts, but if we leave aside the ram-troll and the "Frank-Milleresque" elements, I can be happy  [ugly]



For example, it would be interesting to see some relatively big bats, with models reminiscent of the fellbeasts, acting as unique, small and nimble aerial units. Quite a nightmare if you don't have archers.



Offline Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #42 am: 10. Okt 2016, 21:59 »
I know, some of them are just too grotesque! That troll from the image, for example :P.

I had read that article before, it seems we're getting a good fair share of the Goblins in the movies, and I don't think that concepts have changed a lot, they were already made in a great way! (Besides model improvements, and giving Hobbit Wargs to the Gundabad Riders, I believe they were changed to be that way, and I like it!)

Big bats like the Gundabad ones would be great, as they already were a power even in vanilla Goblins, and they can be made bigger!


Offline Walküre

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #43 am: 10. Okt 2016, 23:05 »
The official news concerning the faction came out almost three years ago; it's consequently reasonable and desirable to think that there will certainly be some changes, as for all the other factions before. Particularly, I too believe there are still some concepts from BOTFA that would do fine in the game. If I grasped correctly, Fredius already addressed an interesting topic related to Gundabad troops.

Yes, those mauled zombie-trolls are the quintessence of the grotesque motive underlying the whole Hobbit trilogy. The Community has expressed multiple times its wish to do completely away with those concepts. Therefore, in other words, I assure you they will never be a part of the Edain Mod, as long as it remains a rational universe characterised by precise boundaries  :P

The big bats darkening the skies that we both read about and see in the Hobbit (books and films) were already dealt with when we discussed weather spells. Particularly, in line with the idea of each faction disposing of a weather spell based on its essence, the Goblins will summon great clouds of bats that will darken the sky and bring darkness to the battlefield. This extremely conceptual and lore accurate concept has received the appreciation of Ealendril and of many other users  :)

Offline Julio229

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Re: Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
« Antwort #44 am: 10. Okt 2016, 23:17 »
I'm always fine with changes and I like them, at least I hope the basic building system for MM hasn't changed, because that is in my opinion the most iconic feature of the upcoming Misty  Mountains!

It is certain that a lot of aspects of the BOTFA Goblin Army are grotesque and strange, but I think some like the Trolls that appeared (Not the stupid Ogres, but the ones with helmets are such) were not that bad, but nevertheless, Misty Mountains, whether it has some BOTFA concepts or not, will surely be awesome!