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Autor Thema: New Angmar Ringhero  (Gelesen 6504 mal)

TheDarkOne

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #60 am: 18. Jan 2017, 03:16 »
I understand what you are saying about a key figure being replaced by someone else. However, would you class Boromir as the most important or prominent hero of Gondor? I'd probably give that role to Aragorn or Gandalf. However, Boromir can be given the Ring and in that moment, he becomes the most important hero of the faction as everything is focused on him. In Necro's plan, the Witch King would still be important due to the threat of his return (represented by the timer). Some extra effect could be added when Witch King returns (e.g. station units around all buildings to keep control and prevent rebellion) or as a passive while Mornamarth is ruler (not sure about what this could be although I'm sure we can think of something).

Very well said.

Garlodur

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #61 am: 19. Jan 2017, 13:36 »
The idea of the faction is of different groups trying to become more powerful (even at the expense of others) with one strong figure tying them all together. Pretty much everyone in Angmar (apart from Wights and Wolves obviously) decided to follow the WK because he was more powerful than Arnor and could therefore offer them more. It wasn't his name or his status as a Nazgul that made people follow him. It was his power and the opportunities it presented. Put it this way: If you were a soldier working for the Witch King and then another figure turned up who is even more powerful, would you stick with the Witch King or go to the more powerful ruler so it would turn out better for you?

The thing is though, that in your concept Mornamart does not offer more than the Witch-King to its followers. There are two things necessary in a rebellion: one that there is discontent with the current leader's progress, and the other that there is a promise to a different, more extreme alternative. The problem is then becomes that few are willing to risk the progress made if they would follow another person's will.
The Witch-King promised revenge to the Wildmen of Rhudaur, domination to the Men of Carn Dum, carnage to the Orcs and Wolves, limitless experimentation in Necromancy to the Sorcerers, and sacrificial bodies for the Barrow-Wights. In exchange he wanted Arnor extinguished, and Rivendell held off/weakened. Mornamarth cannot make more extreme promises than that which give Angmar's inhabitants a better bargain.

The Witch-King and Mornamarth are inherently different characters: the Nazgul does Sauron's bidding and his no utility for Angmar once Arnor is destroyed (remember the way the Nazgul went all-in against the armies of Eärnur and Elrond); adversely, Mornamarth wants a realm for his own in which quite obviously the Men of Carn Dum have a higher social position towards all other Men, Orcs and creatures. Angmar under Mornamarth resembles Arthedain's superiority over Rhudaur, and Cardolan to a lesser extent. Mornamarth is a Man and thus easily corrupted by power.

I would like to see these issues addressed from a conceptual point of view before all of you continue suggesting abilities and powers that form a very inconsistent picture of the concept. I am not principally in favour or against the second ring-hero but work needs to be done in presenting a coherent picture.

The Witch-King of Angmar

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #62 am: 21. Jan 2017, 18:42 »
As far as i know, the ringwraiths are meant to reclaim the one ring, so if mormarath found the ring and wore it, i dont think the witch king will find him as great problem since all the knowledge of mormarath in magic is nothing compared to him, and mormarath cant trigger and use the full power of the ring, the ring will destroy him and be in the witch-king's favor in battle since he wants to come back to his master.

I would class Gandalf and Aragon as the most important heroes in Gonder, however, when Boromir takes the ring, Gandalf is still as important as before and Continue to aid the kindom of gondor, Aragon didnt sit on the thron of gondor untill he was as old as my grand father, most of the time he is just a ranger, Boromir is the son of denethor who are allowed to rule gondor when thier is no king, so even when boromir takes the ring and everything focused around him, the other important heroes of gondor didnt loose anything of thier place in the faction and the faction characterization is not effected,thats why it fits perfectly for boromir to be a ring hero unlike how the witch-king will be replaced in angmar.

Now you are saying the forces of angmar will serve mormorath out of fear and because he is currently the strongest, yet the witch-king will come and slay him, how did the witch-king kill someone stronger than him? reinforcment from mordor? that is not possible at all, you know how far mordor is from angmar? not to mentions all the good factions that the witch-king will face on the way, there is no way that mordor troops will make it to angmar, and as far as i know at angmar time, mordor was not as strong as at the battle against gondor, and i dont think its a good idea to see mordor troops in angmar faction game play-wise.

The wizards cult of Angmar follow Gulzar (witch-king's best student) who is very loyal and grateful to the witch-king, for him the witch-king is not just a master but a teacher as well, so the wizards wont betray the lord of all witchers.

If the troops didnt obey mormarath then you would have mormarath and his men Vs the witch-king and the orcs hillmen wizards wolfs barrow wights trolls, the witch-king is sauron's strongest servant and he gave all his forces the ultimate promises i dont think its a good idea to leave such a good leader and follow mormarath out of fear, since he will treat them miserably, and will throw them to battle and not care about them since he only care about his men and he look down to other races, and he already cant offer more than the witch-king to them, there is no great trade off that could convince the armies to betray the witch-king.

"his own folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding." - J.R.R. Tolkien

Thats another point why I am against mormarath as a second ring hero is because I realy like the theme of sacrifice in the faction and how the forces of the witch-king ready to pay their own lives to archive victory, and in my opinion it doesnt fit to have this sacrifice theme and a rebellion in the same faction.

TheDarkOne

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #63 am: 23. Jan 2017, 00:53 »
Mornamarth may use the essential tension within Angmar ranks. Hillmen were promised a shelter, something not close enough but kind of prosperity. Men of Carn Dum were promised power. Necromancers were promised limitless knowledge of Dark arts and beasts were promised an endless supply of food and prey to hunt and kill.

And with the finding of the One Ring and a (possible plotted) major loss in one of the minor battles and consequent heated tension, Mornamarth begins the rebellion. He secretly goes to disillusioned Angmar heroes. Even if he can't convince all of them, Zaphragor in particular, he can easily dispose of them with his newfound power and loyal troops.

Hwaldar knows that his men, hillmen of Rhudaur, certainly deserve something more than a total disrespect and a dissatisfying reward for all their deaths.

Helegwen doesn't care about the faction's leader much and she doesn't really have a choice but to aid him. Coercing Gulzar and Zaphragor would be a real challenge but if Mornamarth succeeds in convincing them that their King is a traitor himself, leading them only to destruction and caring only for his own goals and nothing else, the two closest to the Witch King will help to end the reign of the Lord of the Nine. Mornamarth and all Angmar key figures storm into the Sanctum leaving all guards dead in their path...

That's how everything could have started. But I cant imagine how exactly it ended. But there should be a possibility of the return of the WK (and even his possible active role after the rebellion). Come on, guys. We can make it cool together.
« Letzte Änderung: 23. Jan 2017, 01:09 von TheDarkOne »

OakenShield224

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #64 am: 23. Jan 2017, 17:59 »
I understand what Garlodur and The Witch-King of Angmar are saying about how a rebellion needs something to start it off and how there isn't that idea in Angmar. However, TheDarkOne is making a good point by saying that WK doesn't care about his people and is just influencing and bribing them to follow his own requests. Once he has no need of them, he'll just forget about them. While Mornamarth may not care about anyone other than his own men, he may try to create doubts in the minds of the others. He'd try and convince them that the WK doesn't care about them. He'd make them think that Mornamarth wouldn't forget about them.

The One Ring gives people the power depending on the power they already have (which is why hobbits can only turn invisible, while Gandalf and Galadriel could become new Dark lords). With the one ring combined with the power and influence he already has, Mornamarth would be able to influence the thoughts and decisions of others. Maybe not enough to cause a full division or civil war (like in Numenor) but definitely enough to create doubts and reduce their faith in the Witch King.

TheDarkOne

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #65 am: 24. Jan 2017, 02:28 »
While Mornamarth may not care about anyone other than his own men, he may try to create doubts in the minds of the others. He'd try and convince them that the WK doesn't care about them. He'd make them think that Mornamarth wouldn't forget about them.

With the one ring combined with the power and influence he already has, Mornamarth would be able to influence the thoughts and decisions of others. Maybe not enough to cause a full division or civil war (like in Numenor) but definitely enough to create doubts and reduce their faith in the Witch King.

He might try to behave like he cares about all thralls under him to a certain extent to become a trustworthy figure and gain their support. The ring could empower his vampire-like abilities, turning him into an unique hero who will be the last standing as he drains life from all troops around him.

We can take a closer look upon another situation: he finds the ring but wants to pass it to the Witch King to gain his favor and ascend to the ruler of Angmar while the Witch King departs (later of course). In this scenario Mornamarth is a temporary ring hero who passes (via some game mechanic) the Ring to the WK. This is cruicial if the Lord of Angmar hasn't been recruited yet. But if he is present, Mornamarth can still keep it and pass the Ring to the WK later.

After passing the Ring Mornamarth loses much of the newfound strength but still retains his upgraded abilities and spells (as a reward for his loyalty and a consequent gift of the WK in the form of teaching him more sorcery).

However, if he possesses the ring for far too long (5-10 min?), the Ring ultimately corrupts Mornamarth and he starts a rebellion with any possible setbacks which results either in his death or in the Witch King taking the ring. This may encourage people to pass the Ring to the WK as soon as possible to avoid such a situation.

OakenShield224

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #66 am: 24. Jan 2017, 21:20 »
So the current three ideas are:
 - Mornamarth starts a rebellion to take over Angmar (Necro's idea). This would be temporary as the Witch King would eventually come back.
 - Mornamarth holds onto the Ring to give it to Witch King. When he is holding the Ring, he has the powers from Necro's idea. Once he has given the ring to WK, his power level is between Ring Mornamarth and normal Mornamarth. If he doesn't give the ring to WK, he would be corrupted and start a rebellion similarly to the first idea. In this case, WK can't be recruited.
 - Mornarmarth uses the ring solely to enhance his own vampiric abilities. He doesn't care for his soldiers and uses them to personally become stronger. This effect could extend to enemy troops as he drains their energy for his own purpose.

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #67 am: 24. Jan 2017, 23:54 »
I basically agree with the Witchking on this: Currently the Witchking is too central for Angmar and his system is much more interesting than a theoretical system for Mornamarth. (Eventhough it's sad, his ringsystem got completely crushed in 4.x. But that's basically the story of many features... :()
Actually, Angmar used to have 2 ringheroes, Gulzár being the second. This was changed for basically all the counter arguments mentioned above, primarily that it took the focus away from the WK.
Apart from everything already said, my personal problem is, that there exist already tons of heroes who get overpowered by the Ring while trying to use it (Boromir, Arvedui, Theoden, Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the Cursed). Thus I'd prefer the WK-system where he just murders the entirety of ME by drowning the world in eternal winter. :D

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

OakenShield224

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #68 am: 2. Feb 2017, 19:14 »
Ok there are the current Mornamarth proposals that are being worked on. However, there are also those who believe that WK should be improved as well in his ring state. I’ve tried to bring the different ideas together into one proposal.



I've tried to make it reasonably balanced while sticking to the main theme of winter and fear. Any numbers can obviously be changed at a later date but this is just a general idea. What do you all think?

Dain@

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Re: New Angmar Ringhero
« Antwort #69 am: 5. Feb 2017, 12:10 »
I fully share your opinion (OakenShield 224, The DarkOne)!  I would like to express my support for the idea Necromant about alternative ring the hero in the face of Angmar Mornomart. It is really interesting and offers an alternative way for the development of Angmar through rebellion. In fact, the idea is good because Mornomart as the person owns all of the disadvantages that all people, namely, lust for power and self-interest, which is why I think the idea is really good Necromant.

And maybe you will be interesting