New Spellbook Powers

[Shadowlord]

Greetings Edain fans,

I wrote a similiar post on Moddb but I thought I also post this question on this forum as well. I always thought the Spellbook aspect of the Edain mod was one of the coolest and most well developed mechanics in the game. The unique spellbook powers especially stood out to me like Gondor summoning the army of the Dead, or Isengard bomb power that can devastate an enemy base. However some of the factions have similar powers or powers that don't fit their theme, which I think should be changed for the sake of diversity and making the factions more unique from one another.

The mod is fantastic as it is but I feel that with these changes will help enrich the game further. Note after the voting for the power changes on this forum is complete, I plan to write another forum devoted to what new Spellbook powers would serve as viable replacements.

Above I listed a series of suggestions for what could be changed. Feel free to vote on the change that is most important to you.

1. Removing Lothlórien Summon Eagle Power-

I would like to mention that the new Imladris faction also has the same spellbook power, however I won't be delving into that topic in this forum as the faction hasn't been released yet.

The Summon Eagle Power currently, is a Spellbook power that is shared between the factions of Arnor, Gondor, and Lothlórien. I think that Lothlórien Summon Eagle Power should be replaced with something else. Especially considering that they have the ability to Summon Radagast the Brown on an Eagle mount which I think is kinda repetitive for the faction. As well as the fact that there aren't too many examples in the lore where the Eagles came to the aid of the Lothlórien elves.

A new 7-cost Spellbook power for Lothlórien, summoning a Giant tree that buffs and heals nearby troops, maybe provide stealth.

2. Removing Mordor's Arrow Volley power

My problem with this Spellbook power isn't that it doesn't fit the lore of the faction. But rather the aesthetic, Mordor has always been known as the swarming faction, making large armies of orcs and trolls to overwhelm the enemy. But considering how Arrow Volley is meant to be a mass minion killer ability, it doesn't suit a faction that has no trouble assembling large numbers.

Which is why I think it should be removed and replace with something else, like a Spellbook Power that armors trolls in a selected armor similar to the Rohan's Draft Spellbook Power. Something that fit's Mordor's theme.

3. Removing Rohan's Cloud Break
Cloud Break is a very iconic power among the good factions. However both Rohan's and Gondor's version of Cloud Break are exactly the same. Personally I think Rohan's Cloud Break should be removed since the faction doesn't need a mass stun ability as compared to Gondor, after all Rohan is a cavalry oriented faction, so Rohan Players could easily retreat from a battlefield without a stun as compared to Gondor who relies mostly their soldiers.

Personally I would like to see it replaced with a power like summoning an army of armed peasants and farmhands, maybe even add a Peasant themed hero to lead them, probably put the summon on a timer as well.

4. Removing/Updating Dwarf's Lone Tower Power.

This is more of a nitpick but I thought I mention anyway. This power is shared by both Gondor and the Dwarves. Despite having different models both powers are exactly identical, if anything though I think the Dwarf Lone Tower should have a catapult on tower of it to fire rocks, while Gondor's fires arrows. As a way of making the two powers unique from each other beyond having different models.

That's all, I am not saying that two or more factions having the same Spellbook power is a bad thing, I am simply seeing more variety among the different faction Spellbooks as a way of enriching the game and making the factions feel more unique from each other in terms of play styles. Of course feel free to take this forum with a grain of salt but I hope it encourages Edain fans to give their thoughts on how Spellbooks should be changed in future updates.

[WarOfTheRingVeteran]

All right, I voted for removing Lothlórien's Summon Eagle, after all it's not really as connected to the faction as it is to Imladris and Gondor, so if any faction would have to have that ability removed, I'd rather have it be Lothlórien. What would it be replaced with? I dunno, I guess that's a discussion for another day.

I won't really talk about suggestions for other factions, though I'd like to stand in defense of the Rohan's cloud break. I (I don't know for others) consider it one of the most crucial aspects of Rohan, because it changed the tide of battle at the end of the siege of Helm's deep and it also had an important role at the Battle of Pelennor fields, so it, at least in my opinion, is a very Rohan-esque power.

[Canis carcharothias]

Concerning the cloud break, I think the same as WarOfTheRingVeteran. Maybe we could add the sound of the horn of helm hammerhand before the cloud break and give a buff, to make it different from the gondor cloud break.

But let's go to the eagles of lothlorien. I think that the eagles are in  that spellbook not because of Lothlorien but because of Mirkwood: They had a decisive role in the battle of the Five Armies. I might be missing something, but I can't recall right now any intervention of the eagles in a battle that also involved Imladris. The relation between Imladris and the eagles is merely geographical or thematical (1st age theme). So, I would prefer it to disappear from the Imladris spellbook.

You proposed a healing tree for for a new spell in lothlorien. I would rather see the huorns from the books. They would cause damage, not heal (something that lothlorien has plenty). There was a really nice thread some time ago about these beautiful trees   

PD: I'm not very inspired this morning, and I don't have much time, so the english contained in this post could be quite defficient.

[bookworm1138]

1. For the same reasons Canis said, tying Mirkwood and the Battle of the Five Armies. Also Gwaihir delivered Gandalf to Lothlorien after he became the White. As far as the Eagles' tie to Imladris goes, maybe the whole Manwe thing, I'm not very sure. I do like the idea of Huorns for Lothlorien, but if the Eagles are removed from the Imladris spell-book, I recommend putting in something that fits the whole knowledge-heavy aspect of the faction. Maybe a spell that gives one unit one whole level. That way it's not as OP as a spell that gives one unit maximum level or all the upgrades (forged blades, heavy armor, etc.). If that's not balanced enough, the cooldown can be increased so that you can't just spam all your units to level 5 in a short amount of time.

2. I have no problem with Arrow Volley.

3. I think Gondor and Rohan should both keep the Cloud Break spell. It occurred during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, which was a very important battle for both sides, in which they both took part and both lost many men. Imladris' version should have a new sound (maybe something with wind blowing, since we're talking about Manwe here. Maybe some subtle horn sounds as well to effect his majesty as chief of the Valar)

On a side note, PLEASE NO MORE PEASANTS!!! Rohan is a cavalry faction and that keeps getting broken every time their focus gets switched to peasantry!

4. No problem with Lone Tower.

[kmogon]

1. I think that huorn would be  more suitable for lothrien . For example there can be used model from monster which was next to moria's gate ( Watcher if I'm correct ). That would perfect equal destructible spell which eagels summon was

2. I never used Arrow voley and I will never use it . Maybe if all this site of skill tree is full of support spell , corsairs from umbar spell would suit.

3. No problem

4. I another forum was about how dwarven ballista would be  implemet. Maybe it's good way to replace lonely tower with ballista summon spell. Or maybe skill that adds liquid gold or steel pot on bases - it can be activate for money and wolud work similar to dol amroth defense . It because some members of community complain about weak dwarven defense .

[Walküre]

Imladris' version should have a new sound (maybe something with wind blowing, since we're talking about Manwe here. Maybe some subtle horn sounds as well to effect his majesty as chief of the Valar).

I guess I can answer you properly about this aspect, being the one that proposed the actual new spell for Imladris and suggested its different elements. It's true, the current spell rendition is still too much similar to the usual cloud break spells of the other factions. Another point: since the presence of Breeze of Manwë in the spellbook, we consequently decided to set the whole 'holy wind' theme of my proposal apart and to focus only on the blessing property of the sacred light coming from the Undying Lands.

I had proposed a different display of the spell and different effects too, and I also already presented, in the internal forum, a very iconic and Valinor-related ambient sound for the said spell (which I would rather like to keep as a surprise still). Unfortunately, the Edain Team had other more relevant issues to deal with in this period and the Light of Aman development was eventually postponed; I'm quite sure, though, that the final proposal will find its way into the game in the end. I just want anyone to know that we are nonetheless working on it, as each faction's uniqueness is always held in high consideration 

Regarding the cloud break spells themselves, I don't really think they will ever be removed from the game, given that they have been the specific weather spells of both Gondor and Rohan since the very first BFME1, legitimately referred to the LOTR cinematographic trilogy. Nevertheless, I think it was certainly a good idea to start this discussion about a possible spell overhaul. I have the personal feeling that something might be changed indeed in the future: the general intention is exactly giving to every faction its fitting and unique weather spell, fashioned on each faction's own inner nature.

[VectorMaximus]

I also support the removal of Pleading to Gwahir from the Imladris spellbook. The eagles, despite their geographic proximity in the misty mountains, didn't come to the aid of Rivendell in battle. Personally 3 good factions having the same tier 3 power is disappointing, and it seems that it fits the least in Rivendell, for the reasons stated by Canis and Bookworm. However the question is what it would be replaced with?

I personally would like to see a return for the 'Council of Elrond' ability (unless this was already vetoed elsewhere on the forums), which outside of the last alliance was the most iconic power of the 3.8 faction personally. Otherwise, anyone have any ideas on what eagles could be replaced with for Imladris?

[Walküre]

The problem is that the Eagles are very intertwined with any of those three factions. I recall a recent post of Lord of Mordor that exhaustively explained their connection to Imladris (I didn't know some aspects either): not only is the eyrie of the Eagles close to Rivendell, but they also consult with the Elves themselves, as they do with some Elven scouts in the Fellowship of the Ring. At a smaller extent, it's exactly what the Eagles did during the War of the Jewels, when they used to guard the mountain passes and inform the Noldorin Kingdoms of potential threats.

It's very unlikely that the Council of Elrond spell and other similar ones will ever be used again in the game. This specific spell caused technical issues that, unfortunately, can't be fixed. It was then removed in the earlier versions of the Beta.

I nonetheless agree with you. Each spellbook should be the most diverse and unique possible. So, if the Eagles are ever to be replaced by a more appropriate concept, I personally think that this could happen in Lothlórien. As far as it depends on me, every suggestion for a new spell is more than welcome.

[Canis carcharothias]

I nonetheless agree with you. Each spellbook should be the most diverse and unique possible. So, if the Eagles are ever to be replaced by a more appropriate concept, I personally think that this could happen in Lothlórien. (...)

I'm totally against this. Let's say you play on Erebor map: dwarves of the Iron Hills and Lothlórien versus Misty Mountains. You have dwarves, mirkwood eleves, orcs, wolves and... no eagles! That would be a total shame. It's a well known batlle from the lore, and the only one in the Hobbit, a book in which six subfactions of the game are centered (Goblin Town, Gundabad (meh), Iron Hills, Ered Luin, Laketown and Mirkwood).

What I am trying to say  is that, yes, eagles have some relationship with Imladris,but they did not participate in any fight alongside the Imladris elves. I know that there are some "what if" escenarios in this game, but I think we should have some priorities with the lore (in terms of battles, that's what the game is about) in this case.

Or maybe, there could be another way of implementing eagles in Lórien or Imladris, apart from the spelbook, so that we get some variety. But removing eagles from Lórien is not the way to go!

[kmogon]

I'm totally against this. Let's say you play on Erebor map: dwarves of the Iron Hills and Lothlórien versus Misty Mountains. You have dwarves, mirkwood eleves, orcs, wolves and... no eagles! That would be a total shame. It's a well known batlle from the lore, and the only one in the Hobbit, a book in which six subfactions of the game are centered (Goblin Town, Gundabad (meh), Iron Hills, Ered Luin, Laketown and Mirkwood).

There were only two battles in which eagels taked part  in Hobbit and Lotr nad Edain team are making mod mainly for war of thr ring period so if there any changes would appear , I think that eagles would stay only in Gondor . Additionaly Lothrien already has Radagast on eagle spell ( and I think a better option for them is to implement huorns which would be more unique ) so I think that the second one isn't nessesary . About Imladris Noldors and eagles taked part in a plenty of battles during first and secon era so in this case the best option for them is to add recruitable one eagle or more  - on settlement ( or outpost ) in sth like eagle nest . Another option is to implement them in whichone hero skill.

[Walküre]

I'm totally against this. Let's say you play on Erebor map: dwarves of the Iron Hills and Lothlórien versus Misty Mountains. You have dwarves, mirkwood eleves, orcs, wolves and... no eagles! That would be a total shame. It's a well known batlle from the lore, and the only one in the Hobbit, a book in which six subfactions of the game are centered (Goblin Town, Gundabad (meh), Iron Hills, Ered Luin, Laketown and Mirkwood).

I'm not really saying that the Eagles have no connections with Lothlórien/Mirkwood and that, thus, they ought to be removed. The Eagles have bonds with all these three factions (Gondor, Lothlórien and Imladris). But, if we really have to make a choice, my opinion is that the most appropriate solution would be changing the current summoning spell of Lothlórien.

As kmogon rightly pointed out, the Edain Mod is primarily set in the War of the Ring, and the Eagles are already well and smartly implemented in Lothlórien via Radagast; being this an important reference to what we saw in BOTFA, when Radagast himself led them into battle. I personally find this quite enough. Furthermore, I guess that my previous statement was indeed considering the lore very carefully: as I wrote, the Eagles have always been much more acquainted with the Noldor of Imladris (the survivors and descendants of who fought the War of the Jewels) since the very First Age. Therefore, I would honestly say that it's pretty much evident how Manwë's creatures have much more in common with Rivendell than the Sindar of Lothlórien/Mirkwood. And, don't forget that the core essence of Lothlórien/Mirkwood, as a faction, is exactly centred on Lothlórien (and not on Mirkwood).

In addition, I can't really see the logic of maintaining a spell just to fit well in a single map (out of the other multiple ones that we have). It would be quite strange if it were so, wouldn't it? 

[Canis carcharothias]

In addition, I can't really see the logic of maintaining a spell just to fit well in a single map (out of the other multiple ones that we have). It would be quite strange if it were so, wouldn't it? 

That would be like removing Grond from the Mordor spellbook or the Army of the Dead from Gondor because they only fit well in the Pelennor fields.

I know it was just one batlle, but with Imladris there were none. If this were an historic RTS I would give the RAAF summon to Britain, not to New Zealand, even though the last two have a lot of relation both politically and geographically. But the Brits and the Aussies fought together at least once.

But that's just my opinion, and opinions are like arses, everyone has one.

[Walküre]

I don't think that picking up Grond as an example is really so much relatable to the case we are now debating. You wrote that it would be quite strange if, playing in Erebor (the actual map), Lothlórien couldn't make usage of that spell; as Mordor can with Grond (being this a very pivotal reference to LOTR). But I already pointed out the elements of your statement that I personally consider inconsistent (lore and gameplay speaking).

1. The faction of Lothlórien/Mirkwood is centred mainly on Lothlórien. And the very Lothlórien is mainly set in the War of the Ring. The Battle of the Five Armies belongs to another timeline, Mirkwood is a splendid subfaction but a subfaction nonetheless, and, in the end, a just question: were the Eagles specifically summoned by Mirkwood to aid Thranduil's troops in the war, or, instead, did they come under Radagast's plea to help Elves, Dwarves and Men equally? I regard the latter as the right answer.

2. Just to connect to the previous point, if your concern is maintaining that reference to the Eagles' coming in BOTFA, Radagast already embodies this aspect very properly. He can also summon another eagle to join him (and, why not, nothing denies us the possibility to suggest he summon even more Eagles).

3. Basing on the arguments of point 1, neither Lothlórien nor, especially, Mirkwood can count on a so close and militarily benefitting relationship with the Eagles, during the War of the Ring. The opposite in dealing with Rivendell: these creatures guard the very mountain passes and even consult directly with the Noldor (recreating a similar alliance as the one of the First Age).

Of course, everyone is legitimately entitled to its own opinions. That's why we are discussing them in this thread 

[DrHouse93]

I also agree that having the same spell with 3 different factions is a bit enough, and I support both the removal of the Eagles Summon from Lothlorien (for the same reasons expressed by DieWalkure) and replacing them with something different (I like the Huorns concept, although that would mean creating entirely new animations for them)

I also think that, if Eagles were to be removed from Lothlorien's spellbook, Radagast should be able to summon two of them. This atleast would be a good compromise, as it wouldn't remove the Eagles entirely from Lothlorien, but still differentiating their spawn because they're tied to Radagast (which will make the player think if he needs him on foot, on his sledge or leading Eagles)


Another power which is quite lame to me is the Mordor Arrow Volley, but in that case the matter is different: I can't think to a better replacement right now

[Canis carcharothias]

The thing is that Erebor, par example, has 4 Hobbit-based spells, just because of the Ered Luin heroes. I don't see a problem in a spell for Lórien that makes reference to the battle of the five armies because of Mirkwood.

In my opinion, the Radagast power right now doesn't have enough grandeur to represent that event. With some changes, it could be more than enough, I grant you that.  (and DrHouse, as I can read now)

And I'm not saying that eagles should not have a place in the Imladris faction, I'm just saying that they should be featured in Lórien.

PD: The huorn concept is great for Lórien, and it doesn't need too much animation, just a really dense forest that shakes while doing damage to the units, like in the movie.