[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Imladris Suggestions

Imladris Balance Suggestions

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--- Zitat von: [BMD]Dmitry am 28. Dez 2016, 07:18 ---Hello! Thank you for your titanic work, for the wonderful mod! I play The Battle for Middle-earth on the network since 2006. Your mod has become for me a practical bfme-3... The only mod, which have serious balance.

Since the release of 4.4, I play only for Imladris, trying to learn how to play, against any faction.
I play at a fairly good level, recently at the tournament came in second place of the 16 most active players in gameranger.

Imladris well balanced against Isengard, Angmar, Gondor.

Lorien:

Imladris at the start has only one detachment of swordsmen, you can quickly purchase a second ..
However, Lorien may have at the start of so many groups that force swordsmen Imladris lose its value: one unit Lorien runs, and the second attack from the back, archers shoot ...
But, at the beginning of the game, perhaps one troop swordsmen to kill the troll, received the money, do one cavalry troop.

Okay, so, with a good micro control, in the early game Imladris can withstand Lorien...
However, if Lorien builds an outpost, it is practically impossible to fight!

Exclusive spearmen, minstrels, Galadriel capture, the capture of the palantir roots, capture arrows of  Haldir (recovers a very fast), the capture of Radagast. Because of this, the cavalry can not neutralize the archers.
Maybe all this is justified for Lorien, towards to other factions, but very expensive units of Imladris...

Imladris can not lose a lot of units, it is fatal for him.

Lorien has large and inexpensive units of outpost, star arrows of very quickly destroy costly troops of Imladris.
Loremasters not solve the problem: they are just as scared of arrows of Haldir, stop of Galadriel, skill of palantir.   

Ered Luin:

Catastrophe! At the start of the game, the dwarves have the speed, have many units, cheaper, strong enough, the crows of the Palantir will help them to easily kill swordsmen of Imladris, and you can not escape! (soldiers of Imladris do not have the speed at the beginning of the game.
Of course, you can start in the cavalry for 1600 (800 + 800 stable building unit cost) but you yourselves understand ...
Well, you do not got a very strong opponent, and you miraculously survived in the early game.
But there is Torin ... he is able to destroy many swordsmen of Imladris, even with improved armor and blades of Erigion
Of course, Torin will not fight alone, he will have the support units, less expensive than in of Imladris.

But the main problem at the start of the game, rather than Thorin.

Iron Hills:
Perhaps, but extremely difficult.
In the melee compete with these guys is impossible, and archers of Imladris unavailable, second level of the barracks, only 5 (!) soldiers in troop and take the limit of 120 (!). Arrows of Mitlond good, but the cost of the three units + Tower - 4300. And these three groups is not enough in the late game. Archers Dúnedain not solve the problem, they are built too long to get the fiery darts too hard, goats destroy them very rapidly)
Well, fire catapults destroying the archers quickly and catapults of Imladris!
And, the soldiers of iron hills can get together in a pile around the catapults + iron hills are resistant to the consternation (loremasters not work)

Mordor:
In the late game Imladris good job, but at the start of Imladris has not masters of the blade, so the  free orcs surround and kill swordsmen (by means of poison and Gorbag eye of Sauron) are free, numerous groups of orcs sent to many farms destroy them, and Imladris can not have a sufficient number of troops to protect them.

Rohan:
Available cavalry, cheap peasants ... Imladris lacks pikemen units (cost of unit 600), a lot of farmers groups establish control of the map, destroying farms, and the horsemen of Rohan already at the start suppresses infantry of Imladris. All this is happening even before the possible hiring Dúnedain,
because Rohan may employ its forces immediately, Imladris need outpost (800 + cost of grade for the possibility of hiring troops) Money + time.

In conclusion, I want to say that all this applies to games between equally strong players. Of course, you can win the race strong - weak. But we want to have equal chances. Imladris newest faction and needs correcting, she is beautiful, all the heroes, the warriors are exceptionally well designed and made in style, I was surprised - this is the only race in which I  love every unit and I'm really looking forward to when Imladris can fight all factions on equal chances!

--- Ende Zitat ---

It should be better if these balance-related considerations were merged with the proper thread, which focuses on balance solely.

--- MERGED ---

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
Every faction has a hard time against Lorien when you use all of Lorien's tools. There's just too much stuff that's op, like Haldir's arrow. In any case you absolutely need Cirdan for his fear resistance in this matchup and the Lindon archers for their leadership. Other than that, get an Air Lore Master for the speedbuff and then try to get into melee. Still tricky, but from my experience it's the best chance you have.

Can't really say much about the dwarves, Ered Luin's speedboost is broken while I haven't played enough matches against Iron Hills. Both Mordor and Rohan are very interesting matchups, I think. They are well balanced and the longer you survive as Imladris, the better your chances get. I like to play those :)

[BMD]Dmitry:
In many ways I agree with you. However, once again, Imladris lose if it suffered losses, the units are very expensive. Cirdan very helpful. I hope his skill Protection from the fear will remain in 4.5
Cirdan can quickly die (Celeborn, Ents, guards Thranduil)
And then the battle will be lost, and to recover from the loss of the army Imladris is not capable

Lorien archers have a lot of soldiers in each squad and a very high damage stellar arrows.
Imladris swords die instantly!
Lorien outpost provides rapid mobilization, units come one after the other.

I think the main problem is the balance of Imladris - the lack of available archers; compare: galadrim too elite, but to get them you need to build one building for 750; The squad of 10 soldiers, they are very strong, can switch between the bow and the sword (strong anti-heroes) costs 600.

To get the archers Imladris to build a library of 700+ 1200 update in the library - almost 2,000, not counting the cost of the unit (600) in Group 5 soldiers, they take 120 limit not have armor (Galadhrim have at once)

And what Imladris with an ax throwers Dwarves of Erebor? Swordsmen, arrows dunadayn they kill with one stroke, in the beginning of the game the initiative slipping out of the hands of Imladris, gnomes capture points on the map, build a catapult grady ax throwers.

The game (1on1 and team) may include a variety of situations, not always available to the outpost, and that? Imladris deprived of archers, the resources spent on expensive swordsmen, despair (if you have an experienced opponent)

In the tournament, which was recently, of 16 people only me played for Imladris, guys are afraid to play this faction.

Any errors, lost 2 squad - minus 1000 resources at the beginning of the game it is a colossal loss.

I'm not complaining, it is a feature of Imladris, costly, but strong.

But please do not deprive Imladris tactical diversity, archers should be available from the barracks level 1, these small groups without armor grade, without gold arrows and so expensive (600) will not be op.

Mogat:
You are bringing up some valid points here, however I wouldn't see the balance problem on the imladris side. First of all I think this faction is overall pretty good balanced and can be played with success against every other faction except Lothlorien and Ered Luin as you already pointed out.
(However its much more difficult to play as you are not allowed to loose any unit or get caugh offguard at any time. Therefore you have one of the most powerful scouting skills of the game via gidor)

I think the edain team is already fully aware of Loriens OPness and will look over it, but here some outtakes:
- Haldirs arrow is realoading with horrendous speed,
- Legolas knives wrecks with his abnormously high aoe every melee army (not that significant vs. Imla) and in archer mode he can bring down any heroe.
- Galadhrim have crazy damage and are pretty cheap for their effectiveness as you pointed out, and cannot be countered at all (archers --> Galadhrim are especially effective against them; cavalry  :D --> Galadhrim take 2+ times to run over due to their crazy hitpoints --> every other unit gets taken out from range or slaughtered in melee combat.
Combined with the most powerful Anti-cav pikes in the game, the fastest pikes in the game, the knockback resistance from the singers, crazy amounts of stuns and the elkriders lothlorien is practically immune to cavalry since the midgame. And there we have it. An archer faction which with silverthorn wrecks everything, immune to cav.

Additionally, the Lothlorien base is basically invulnerable. You can bunker with your archers in your base and since Caras galadhon guards outrange catapults sit there without danger of beeing attacked. In my opinion thats even the most significant point and should be looked upon first by the team.

So much to the faction of lothorien. You see, its the faction itself which is broken against any other faction if played correctly. I agree that vs. Imladris its especially strong because of Imladris archer-weakness, but this remains the problem of imladris. On how to maybe think to counter that I agree with what Elendil said above.

In your next point you mention dwarven axethrowers. They are pretty overpowered too at the moment, mainly becaues they profit from the blades upgrade like the rest of your army too, and because their damage counts as melee damage.
This strategy however is countered simply by Imladris cavalry and Imladris agression. Against an erebor player you need to constantly keep his army (especially his axthrowers) small so that when he finally reaches forged blades he doesn't have enough units to upgrade with it. If he does indeed manage to either win ealry engagements or get a big axthrower clump its pretty difficult for an imladris, but thats the job that needs to be done: keep him small.

Ered Luin is too strong in gereral, but against imla its a freewin.

The other matchups are more balanced and pretty interesting to play as imladris and quite winnable.
I am not so sure about your archer-proposal. If archers would be already in level one barracks I feel imla would turn into this ugly archer faction immune to cavalry, although its rather supposed to be the strong melee elite faction. I think its well balanced via the dunedain archers to which you have access through the outpost and the extremely strong lindon archers in the tower; tactical diversity is available. (The only faction against which this change would be needed is lorien anyways, so lets see how it goes after they are nerfed.) In some other matchups I feel this change could break alot.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
Now go write that in the Lorien Balance thread, Mogat. ;)

Axe throwers in general benefited greatly from the range tweaks that archers got. They used to do more damage and have a better damage type in exchange for not being able to shoot as far as archers, but that has now been thrown out of the window and they are just better than archers hands down (except Lorien, duh). Erebor axe throwers with their superb ability should now be considered op on paper, but you can play around them. Erebor is quite a weak faction imho, Axe Throwers carry them quite a bit. Bait your opponent into overcomitting, then punish his slower army by killing it on retreat. Other than that, try to get heavy armor; it makes their ability go from +50% damage to 0%.

I agree with Mogat concerning your archer proposal - Imladris really should be the melee superiority faction, with the strongest melee units right out of the gate, fantastic cavalry and lots of healing abilities to support your units. I like how they play in general, I actually think Imladris is a bit too strong too quickly  xD

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