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Autor Thema: Edain 4.4: General Feedback  (Gelesen 3506 mal)

Offline Hamanathnath

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #15 am: 24. Sep 2016, 07:56 »
Yeah, Ered Luin is the best right now.  Though Iron hills is a close second for me.  Erebor seems to be the one that is underwhelming (and by that, I mean actually balanced.  Ered Luin and Iron Hills could use some nerfs IMO.)

Offline lahe95

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #16 am: 10. Okt 2016, 18:21 »
When AI ring hero picks up the ring, the ring hero goes back to the base and just camps there. Only attacks when I attack the base.

Offline Garlodur

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #17 am: 16. Okt 2016, 23:51 »
Hello people of Edain,

I hope this is the best place to give some feedback of the latest patch 4.4.1. I have done a playthrough of all factions against Imladris, as well as the reverse, and I wanted to share my 'findings'. I do not pretend that I am a great player but AI Brutal enemies are no problem in general. I have no experience playing online, and I know that balancing the game is mainly aimed at that aspect of the mod. Nonetheless, I feel that these observations must be shared.


In short, I feel that Imladris is a great faction with very unique gameplay mechanics. They usually survive early game and from then on it becomes fairly easy as I worked on keeping units alive and upgrading them to the fullest. On Lore Masters I have to say that they inhabit a special position: having them against you they are mostly annoying because of their numbers (the Brutal AI's beautiful tactical insight here), but when using them myselves I found them painfully weak and not game changing at all.

Lastly, I want to make a quick note on Heroic Units: they are not strong in the current version. Due to their small battalions and slow revival rate they don't survive mass engagements. They are often the AI's first target if no heroes are present, and seem to cost too much trouble for their price compared to a high number of standard units for the same price.

Again, I hope these small observations help the Edain Team with balancing. Fortunately the siege aspect is on the table and I see many improvements coming in already.

Keep up the fantastic work!

Offline DrHouse

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #18 am: 25. Nov 2016, 02:32 »
hello! I am new, thanks for your great work :), amazing!

by the way, i want to report some little problems in order to help you!
- sometimes Dwalin is bugged and can't attack units (after using his powerful blow)
- against lothlorien, is difficult for catapults to hit structures, i always hit the catwalk instead
- does the ring can be pick up only by ring heroes? it's different from preview versions, true?

very very good work, i love it!!

ps is there a place where i can find units' values or something else, in order, for example, to know if outpost units are better or not, thank you :)

Offline DaGeggo

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #19 am: 25. Nov 2016, 14:20 »
Zitat
- does the ring can be pick up only by ring heroes? it's different from preview versions, true?
Yes, it also stands in the description of the ringusage if you look at your citadell :D.

Zitat
ps is there a place where i can find units' values or something else, in order, for example, to know if outpost units are better or not, thank you
There actually is the Edain mod searcher, in witch you can find all the values you are looking for. A great program! The only thing is that Im not completely sure if it supports english completely yet, but there is a english version to wich you can switch in the Searcher.
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,33200.msg436451.html#msg436451

PS: There are extra threads for Bugs proposal etc. Just look in the Edain Mod index.




Geh nun und stirb auf die Weise, die dir die beste deucht.

Offline Walküre

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #20 am: 25. Nov 2016, 14:46 »
hello! I am new, thanks for your great work :), amazing!

Welcome to Modding Union! It's great to see that we have another DrHouse pleasing us with his presence  ;)

Yes, now only Ring heroes can pick the One Ring up. It's one of the recent innovations brought by the 4.4 patch, while also being a means via which even the AI can make usage of this feature, thus resolving a long-time issue.

Offline DrHouse

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #21 am: 25. Nov 2016, 15:48 »
hello! I am new, thanks for your great work :), amazing!

Welcome to Modding Union! It's great to see that we have another DrHouse pleasing us with his presence  ;)

Yes, now only Ring heroes can pick the One Ring up. It's one of the recent innovations brought by the 4.4 patch, while also being a means via which even the AI can make usage of this feature, thus resolving a long-time issue.

ahah thank you :)
and also thanks DaGeggo!

Offline Pentaquark

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #22 am: 29. Jan 2017, 19:15 »
Hey guys,
I'm just a regular BFME fan who used to play the game back in the day and tried out Edain 4.4.1 last week.

I would like to give some feedback regarding a couple things that I did not like.
If this post comes across as negative, please remember that I liked the mod a lot concerning most things, I am merely focusing on the stuff I think could be improved on.

Also note that everything I will discuss should not be taken in the context of balance, but rather as how the game feels/flows and how rewarding it is.

1)
The first big thing I did not like are the Veterans of the last Alliance.
This unit has the ability to level up to level 20, which I assume was to make it feel powerful (it's a heroic unit after all). And before I tried them, that worked for me. I wanted to try them out and level them up.

... except it's not that easy. In fact, it is really freakin hard. Not every unit gains experience as fast as others, even if they require the same amount. For instance, it is MUCH easier to level up an archer unit, simply because they don't have to struggle with unit clumping and target aquisition as badly.

In fact, I even took it so far to start a game specifically dedicated to level them up. It takes forever, even if you have a mindless ki spamming shitty units at you.

The next issue is that even if you manage to do that, it is still very likely that you lose them. This is because in bfme, regular soldies are essentially cannon fodder. They suck against archers and horses and any form of siege (if they are slow).

This is sadly amplified by the fact that veterans of the last alliance are essentially a worse version of Rivendell swordsmen. They cost a lot more while not having an ability that speeds them up, which is HUGE. Mobility is key, that's why uruk soldiers were the best soldiers in bfme1, by far. Part of the problem here is that mobility partly solves the problem of target aquisition. It happens much less frequently by default that a significant number of your soldiers idle rather than attacking, simply because they were able to cut a corner.
It's also important for being able to retreat your highly treasured troops.
I guess this was a big part of why the unit was antifun to me, the realization that it is just straight up inferior to a different unit that costs less than half the price.

If you ask me how I would change this, I would probably tell you to rethink the leveling system. It's unrealistic for a unit of that type to reach such a level anyway (which makes it frustrating).
It also doesn't make a shred of sense thematically. The soldiers experience has to be reflected somehow - yes - but why does he spawn level 1 then, if he has been around for ages and fought in wars that his companions didn't?
It would make more sense if the unit would just have the same levels as everyone else, but have a higher spawn level.

However, I would go in a different direction entirely. The role of such a soldier in a battle would not be to attack and deal tremendous amounts of damage but rather to protect more valuable troops like archers/siege weapons. They already kind of have a move like that in that they cannot be trampled.
However ideally, the concept of a last "line of defense" is good. How about you add a feature that these units have a stance in which they cannot be walked through? This way they cannot be surrounded by other infantry if you place them strategically (for instance to hold the entrance of a camp).


2)
The second big thing is the mirkwood faction.
I would like to raise 2 big points here, one based on gameplay and the other on lore.
Gameplay wise it sucks being a player that likes mirkwood units in this mod. You have to spend like 10 minutes of your time every single game as well as units and ressources just to aquire an outpost so you can play with the units you intended to get anyways. Like really. It's nothing short of antifun.
It also doesn't make any sense from the point of view of the lore. Mirkwood elves are not a subfaction to lorien/lothlorien elves in any way whatsoever. They are very different, arguably more different towards the other elve factions as the different factions of dwarfs in this game. This is because many wood elves did not answer the call for the west and are much "wilder" than the noldor.
In my opinion, the best solution would be to apply a similar system as you did with the dwarfs, so that you can decide at the beginning of the game which faction you enjoy and decide thus.
This would also be very healthy to all mirkwood units from a balance point of view. They get played more regularly and in a more controlled, less situational environment. Like how do you even balance an expensive champion like Thranduil that you have to buy an outpost for AND who spawns without a mount? It takes forever until you can buy him and you have to put in even more work to level him up so he becomes useful. By any rights he would have to be broken once you archieved that. I'm not saying that he is/ is not, or that he should be, but rather to illustrate why it's hard to balance with the current system.
« Letzte Änderung: 29. Jan 2017, 20:01 von Pentaquark »

Offline The_Necromancer0

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #23 am: 30. Jan 2017, 00:06 »
I can't say much about veterans of the last alliance because I don't play Imladris much, however I'll just give you the standard answer about Mirkwood getting its own faction. It won't happen for a couple reasons both from a lore perspective and a gameplay perspective. First, there isn't enough about Mirkwood to justify a full faction, the hero roster is limited and they lack a diversity of units/buildings ect... From a gameplay perspective, that would take away a great outpost from Lorien, creating the need for a replacement, in addition planning out Mirkwood as a full faction would require a full set of unique buildings, which because of the lack of lore is complicated. Second, and most important of all, the spellbook, it is impossible to have a unique spellbook for each faction if the dwarven system is used in addition to the unit and building needing to look very similar in order to avoid putting too much strain on the game. And finally, the Dwarven system would lose its uniqueness.

Sub-factions are not meant to show the faction they represent as vassals to the main faction but more as allies (in case of the good faction, can't say the same about evil factions). After all, if my memories are correct it is only thanks to the joint effort of the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood that the walls of Dol Guldur were thrown down.
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Offline Pentaquark

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #24 am: 30. Jan 2017, 09:33 »
I don't really see the issue with "uniqueness". The dwarven situation with multiple subfactions isn't unique to middle-earth, so I don't see why the system should be unique in the mod.

However, mirkwood doesn't have to get their own faction entirely. I am sure you guys will work out something smart in order to make them more accessible, addressing the current situation which is antifun for many.

Offline Walküre

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #25 am: 30. Jan 2017, 11:13 »
While one could justify the presence of Mirkwood as independent faction via referring to lore-related reasons, the gameplay (that is, the boundaries that tie the whole game together) just doesn't permit to do that. Necro has already addressed the main points, but if you want other more insightful explanations, I'm totally glad to provide you with them.

1. As far as I know, there aren't so many complaints about the current implementation of Mirkwood. The Edain Community is thus rather satisfied with what the game offers, and people are generally conscious of the reasons why the system ought to remain unaltered, unless one is willing to disrupt the whole faction of Lothlórien. Surely, it's possible that there are some players who don't like the current subfaction structure, but I can guarantee you that they are the minority.

2. The Dwarven mechanics are unique because they exactly belong solely to the Dwarves. Applying this feature for Lothlórien/Mirkwood would not be reasonable and would devalue the great differentiation of the faction considerably. Due to technical implications, the Dwarven system binds the factions involved (the ones available as an initial choice) to have the same spellbook and, most importantly, the same structures. Otherwise, things wouldn't work in different ways. While we could theoretically accept to have the same spells (that kind of represent both the realms), having identical buildings is simply not acceptable. That would necessarily mean that either the structures of Lothlórien (totally based on the cinematographic concepts of LOTR) or the halls of the Woodland Realm (totally based on the Hobbit trilogy) should be gone. Both eventualities are thus out of question, given that the atmosphere of the cinematographic trilogies is a paramount property of the Edain Mod. Renouncing it would severely harm the whole ensemble, and that's why we don't want to opt for that solution.

3. In a conceptual perspective, since the very heart of the Edain Mod lies in the events and significance of the War of the Ring (the timeline in which both Lothlórien and Mirkwood are set, by the way), it would be contradictory to have three Elven factions in the game, as the might of the Elves has constantly been waning during the disenchanted Third Age and the apex of their splendour had been inexorably lost after the sorrowful wars against Sauron in the Second Age (and the departure of the last High King of the Noldor). Men are to take the lead in contesting the Evil, for they are destined to rule Middle-earth in the years after the defeat of Sauron; the game shall thus probably end up having 3/4 human factions, depending on the final decision regarding the two new factions to add (Misty Mountains excluded). One of the greatest qualities of the characterisation of the Elves is exactly the one that envisages them as a race that is slowly fading throughout the grey years of the Third Age, albeit being guardians of the most ancient and majestic arts that exist in Middle-earth. In a gameplay perspective: quality over quantity. This is what symbolises their inner nature.

4. Another binding technical limitation: there is space left only for two more factions in the game. The Evil Men are very likely to constitute an own faction and the other new faction is yet to be announced (even though the Community has come up with a quite structured proposal). Mirkwood is not on the radar of the common consensus.

5. And here we are with another significant argument to take into account very carefully. As Necro pointed out clearly, an independent Mirkwood wouldn't dispose (at the current state of things) of enough proper elements to be regarded as a regular faction in the first place. That is, there aren't enough unique upgrades, heroes, structures, spells or units to provide Mirkwood with the basic requirements (gameplay and balance) which every faction should consist of. Speaking about the references to the films, that situation would necessarily force us to make usage of totally fictional material, with the concrete effect of 'watering down' this hypothetical faction and departing too much from the cinematographic feeling. Fictional content is well justified in a context as Angmar and there it exactly has its logic; that wouldn't be the case of Mirkwood though. Personally, I am very sceptical about loose fictional additions, as they often seem to clash with the whole cinematographic essence of the game. Between the two, films naturally have a higher status.

In light of all these arguments, I would recommend you try to look at the whole picture and widen your sight by bearing all the mentioned boundaries in mind. I hope you will understand that it's imperative that things be maintained as they are now. The current presence of Mirkwood might not be perfect, but it's undoubtedly the best compromise they could have conceived. A good deal better than all the other alternatives, that would really devalue (if not disrupt) things and not improve them. Mirkwood being a subfaction both indicates the cultural bond existing between the Elves of the woods (Sindar and, most importantly, the Avari) and the independence of the realm of Mirkwood, as Thranduil had chosen the path of isolationism, when shadows began to awaken in Dol Guldur.

After all, if my memories are correct it is only thanks to the joint effort of the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood that the walls of Dol Guldur were thrown down.

Celeborn and Thranduil dealt with the military aspects and with the enemy hosts. But it's only Galadriel who tore down walls, cleansed the woods and purified that eerie (still enchanted by the memory of Sauron) fortress  8-)

Offline Gandalf7000

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #26 am: 30. Jan 2017, 22:30 »
I have to agree with the main proposal about the Veterans of the Last Alliance. I played with them some time ago and yeah, you get them only at very late game. The max level I could get with them was 7 or 9 (don't remember correctly) and then they died. I like the suggestion about them coming out already level 5 or so. Also I like the suggestion about ability that they can't be walked through - that would give Imladris some enemy blocking/defensive feature so that they can counter massive spam of Mordor or Isengard. On the other hand - since the Veterans are late game units, you already have a normal army by that time and you move to destroy enemy rather than defend some of your troops. I agree that something must be done with the Veterans but my thoughts are split on the ability suggestion.

About Mirkwood: well DieWalkure and Necro already expressed solid arguments and I can only agree with them. It is true, yes that the both realms are quite different but imagine, If there was something that would threaten to destroy everything what is good in Middle Earth (like Sauron or Melkor) it is likely that the elves would join forces to survive.

Offline Pentaquark

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #27 am: 31. Jan 2017, 05:06 »
Very well, you make a compelling case on the subject of mirkwood.
It's easy for me to understand now why mirkwood doesn't have it's own faction.

I remain in the hope that you might consider quality of life changes to make them feel more rewarding.  xD

Offline Walküre

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #28 am: 31. Jan 2017, 08:43 »
Personally, I think that Mirkwood already fares quite well in a global perspective. When the units of the Woodland Realm received (in one of the previous updates) their own new and unique abilities, I guess the overall value of the subfaction increased substantially. Nevertheless, if the developers deem necessary to change something about it, they will certainly consider the case and then come up with a solution  ;)

Very well, you make a compelling case on the subject of mirkwood.

Yes, we can say it's quite compelling indeed  :P

Offline Éomer Éadig

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Re: Edain 4.4: General Feedback
« Antwort #29 am: 28. Apr 2017, 18:39 »
I do agree with Pentaquark about the subject of the Veterans of the Last Alliance. It is extremely cumbersome to get them to a high (by their standards) level. Perhaps the leveling requirement could be set lower?