[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions

Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

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Odysseus:
I did some more thinking last night, and I still agree with Elite. I simply do not see anyway of adding him in a useful manner in multiplayer.

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Odysseus am  9. Aug 2016, 16:46 ---I did some more thinking last night, and I still agree with Elite. I simply do not see anyway of adding him in useful manner in multiplayer.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Fair enough then. From my side, I believe I already presented my ideas quite exhaustively and provided the constructive arguments needed to back my thesis properly. Since I am now focused on another project that requires my attention, I don't think I will intervene further in this discussion; the proposal itself still lacks a detailed design and actual numbers, but I exactly established this thread so that it encompassed a very widened theme (not a specific suggestion, but rather a general debate about Durin's future in the Edain Mod). My purpose was doing a little survey of the Community's thoughts and putting forward the sincere reasons of uniqueness I consider vital for the iconic Durin to remain in the game (in place of the citadel spell, if it's possible).

Obviously, should anyone have other proposals or remarks to do to enrich the debate, the topic will be nonetheless open to ensure this. Probably, I guess it would be really helpful if we managed to receive an answer from the Edain Team as soon as possible, just to draw a definitive line on the matter (in case Durin's concept were really to be gone forever from the game).

I really want to thank all of those who participated actively and, most importantly, constructively to this thread, exposing their own relative arguments and counter-arguments. I feel this discussion is probably one of the many of this forum that ought to be brought as an example of how one should establish a debate and lead it successfully  :)

Fredius:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  9. Aug 2016, 16:04 ---While the spell is in action, I guess the very Vingilótë does appear in the battlefield, as you can also manoeuvre it and the actual model of the ship exactly says that it's Eärendil's enchanted vessel. But even if that weren't the case, the light of Eärendil would never display itself in such fashion (as its only radiant fragment on Middle-earth is captured in Galadriel's phial, and the Mariner won't come down to Arda until the End). Regarding Sauron, he did die in a sense, as his physical body was destroyed by the cataclysm caused by the wrath of Ilúvatar; any Maia who is violently deprived of its physical appearance will inevitably face the loss of some of its powers too. It's quite an inevitable law of Arda, and Tolkien made it very clear that Sauron could have never recovered and retrieved his past might again (particularly, the ability of shape-shifting at a major extent and the ability to appear in a very fair form). That is, the spell is nonetheless a clear violation of the lore, and there is not something more to add about it, in my opinion.
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What everyone seems to forget is the fact that all those characters/powers you have mentioned are already a part of the spellbook. They have been thought of carefully, and are essential to the gameplay of said factions. However, if we look at Durin, he was JUST a ringhero. A ringhero is an addition that can be chosen to be included through the skirmish menu, which means that a ringhero is not a necessity for the Dwarven faction. Unlike the Gorthaur or Last Alliance spell, which are always part of the spellbooks of their corresponding factions, since you can't simply change a spellbook before a match. This is why Durin is not necessary to be included in the Dwarven faction, because he already never was actually a "part" of it, if you get my meaning. Replacing a, imo very handy, spell like the Citadel or Earthquake with Durin, just for the sake of adding him like Odysseus beautifully said, is not a good thing imo.

Also Walk, next time I think it would be best not to include a poll at all, even if it is only to measure the general feelings of the community about the proposal. As you can see there are more people who vote for including Durin, but only people who are against adding him write their arguments. I believe many fans think that only voting for "Yes" or "No" will make any difference, and won't even bother to read the first post, or write arguments against the opponents. Right now it feels like that the only ones in this debate who are in favor of including him is you, who has to counter the arguments of all us "haters" [ugly].


--- Zitat von: lordoflinks am  9. Aug 2016, 10:52 ---
Also while on the topic of Ring Heroes what is the current word on the Dain dilemma, because at the moment it feels like Old Dain is leading the Iron hills and Young Dain is leading Erabor.

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This is actually off-topic. It would be better to write a different thread about this.

Walküre:
I really disagree with that reasoning, Fredius. I can't really see how a game option in skirmishes would even slightly suggest that each Ring hero is something set apart from the correlated faction or even a superfluous feature. I imagine that impressive efforts were put in time to make the Edain Ring system as unique and as recognisable as it is now; I personally deem it paramount to the very Mod's structure (fact that is well illustrated and thus rightly advertised on the ModDB Edain page). Following that 'skirmish logic', I guess we would still have only Sauron and Galadriel available via the One Ring, as it was in the past. The difference with the current system, tailored to every faction's characteristics, is immensely evident in terms of advanced and extremely fitting new possibilities.

Given that I already well explained all the lore references and the ancestral importance of Durin in the Dwarven mythology, I won't repeat myself. In light of that though, I consider the concept objectively too much profound to have it dealt with as something that must be added for the sake of adding. Despite understanding the core thoughts at its heart (several proposals were rightly turned down for this reason), I sincerely doubt that response could cover this issue decently and then provide us with a reasonable answer (what an answer like 'No, we decided to follow a new policy for the entire Dwarven faction and get rid of that old concept' may instead do).

Believe me, I had really just purposes in establishing a poll and I am absolutely aware of the problematics that can consequently arise. Also, I am very acquainted with polls and their inner risks for the fact that polls themselves have been under discussion among Moderators and Administrators, and, as it was already stated, we decided to keep an eye on this feature and to intervene if they had been evidently misused for the most diverse reasons. I can assure you that this is not the case  ;)

The past 'poll-degeneration' consisted of people just abruptly throwing around multiple ideas (very detailed yet improbable) and presenting them as actual poll options, when they should have discussed them before; or using the poll's result as an actual point/argument to use in the debate. I have done none of that. I made it clear from the beginning that it was just a means to gather information about the general feeling, and no way did I ever present it as a favourable argument in my replies. Of course, it's always great if a thread attracts more and more users (and I tried to encourage them as much as my possibilities permitted me), but it's not something that always happens, nor do I have the power to bind them to do so.

I'm sure that more people agree with me and more others don't. The thread will remain open, as I wrote, hoping that new opinions might come in time. The poll had nonetheless just that purpose, and if there are people that just voted positively and flew away, other ones did the same on the opposite side. I know that it can be hard, but sometimes polls need to be treated with extreme patience and good sense  :P

P.S. That forces me to wonder what would have happened in case of a negative majority  :D

Fredius:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  9. Aug 2016, 22:00 ---I really disagree with that reasoning, Fredius. I can't really see how a game option in skirmishes would even slightly suggest that each Ring hero is something set apart from the correlated faction or even a superfluous feature. I imagine that impressive efforts were put in time to make the Edain Ring system as unique and as recognisable as it is now; I personally deem it paramount to the very Mod's structure (fact that is well illustrated and thus rightly advertised on the ModDB Edain page). Following that 'skirmish logic', I guess we would still have only Sauron and Galadriel available via the One Ring, as it was in the past. The difference with the current system, tailored to every faction's characteristics, is immensely evident in terms of advanced and extremely fitting new possibilities.
--- Ende Zitat ---


--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  9. Aug 2016, 22:00 ---Given that I already well explained all the lore references and the ancestral importance of Durin in the Dwarven mythology, I won't repeat myself. In light of that though, I consider the concept objectively too much profound to have it dealt with as something that must be added for the sake of adding. Despite understanding the core thoughts at its heart (several proposals were rightly turned down for this reason), I sincerely doubt that response could cover this issue decently and then provide us with a reasonable answer (what an answer like 'No, we decided to follow a new policy for the entire Dwarven faction and get rid of that old concept' may instead do).

--- Ende Zitat ---

No, that's not what I meant with my post. I'm aware of the amount of work that ET put into the Ring system, and I really admire their work. I wanted to explain to you why spells like Gorthaur or the Last Alliance can't be compared with what Durin as a ringhero was in terms of gameplay, and why it's invalid to remove an ultimate spell just for him. I will try to explain my point in a different way; the current spellbooks are all made in a way that complements with what the faction needs, and to ensure your victory in a match. However, the whole Ring system is just a choice, you can enable/disable the ring system in the skirmish menu, thus Gollum will never appear, and you will never get the bonusses that come with capturing the Ring. That's why the whole Ring system is not a necessity, because you can just play without it, and that's why Durin himself was never a necessity, because the Dwarven faction doesn't necessarily need him to win a match. Even with the Ring system enabled you won't always be able to build him if the enemy captures the Ring.

My point is that the current ultimate spells have already been integrated so well into the Dwarven faction, that they serve their role perfectly during a match. Replacing one of them with Durin, who was just a ringhero before, will disrupt this balance; that's why I don't think it is worth it to remove one of them for Durin, just for the sake of "adding him", not in terms of lore, but in terms of gameplay.

When writing this post I got a bit more curious about Durin, so I went and searched some info about him from tolkiengateway. After reading the article I started to doubt what value he could even have for the Dwarves. He was the oldest of the 7 fathers of the Dwarves, he erected the city of Khazad Dum, named some mountains and hills... and? Yes, that's about it; apart from those things he was just a Dwarven king, nothing else really :S. So why is he soo important to add to the faction, while he didn't even do anything in particular that made him stand out from the other Dwarven kings? I read the whole thread again just to find an argument in terms of lore which supports the importance of adding him to the faction, but the only thing I could find is that he is the oldest creation of Aule, and the fore-father of the Dwarves. That is not special enough to add him imo. Sauron's Gorthaur form has a vast arrange of powers that are tied to the lore, the Last Alliance spell gives us the chance to play with the heroes who defeated Sauron, but what did Durin do exactly?

P.S. It seems that I quoted one of your comments in my post before Walk, because I wanted to reply to it, but then decided not to. However I forgot to remove the quoted comment from the post, which makes it look like I replied on that particular comment :D. I removed the quote from the post.

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