[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions

Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

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kmogon:
I think that saing "just ring hero" isn't as accuratly as we think . For us it just hero but for ET is tons of quotes , textures , skills which taked a lot of time to be like we can saw in 4.3 and I'm not sure that they just forget about it .Aditionally I cannot agree with your ( Fredius ) point of view about durins meaning in dwarven culture . He is sb like dalajlama for dwarves ( or even Aragorn for Gondor ) who is mensioned  in every single dwarf scene in books and movies . Secondary I don't think that dwarven fortres as much usefull . His Low health and cost of uprages just make  him easy to destroy.

And it's not nessesary to delete one of the spells
maybe if  fortres would be able to recruit durin for a large amoumt of money it would make every body happy . He still would be optional and would rise value of 10p spell .

Walküre:
It really seems that this thread is really doing everything to trap me eternally in this topic (and the fact that I opened it in the first place doesn't help either)  xD

No, apart from jokes, what I wanted to highlight about Ring heroes was that most of them do symbolise too fundamental lore aspects of their relative factions (as much as such ultimate spells wonderfully do). In Durin's case, I honestly refuse to think that he was chosen as a Ring hero not without lore reasons also (although the concept was replaced due to the new overhaul, I doubt that its lore value became insignificant overnight). As far as I grasped from the sources, he is indeed the greatest of Aulë's children and the fact that he reincarnated seven times in different timelines proved that right, in my opinion; leading him to be worshipped as the mythical ancestor of all and as the quintessence of the Dwarves themselves as a race.

Unfortunately, I couldn't expand the reincarnation issue further, as it seems to be a very obscure theme in Tolkien's lore. If anyone has additional and more precise lore data, I would be more than happy to be proven wrong and to correct my proposal (just like Elite brought out that fair 'seventh reincarnation' argument). Regarding my remarks on those spells, they were primarily meant to counter Elite's considerations on lore accuracy. I stick to my opinion that Durin as a spell would be equally unique and suitable as the Last Alliance Spell or Power of Past Ages; and those two spells are probably the proof that, sometimes, lore or uniqueness must be held in higher consideration than gameplay and vice versa (in order to add definitely more to the game).

Your points referring gameplay are indeed valuable and valid, Fredius. I'm not displeased at all to get such criticism, because it's absolutely constructive and I established the thread myself to also seek for other people's thoughts. Only, my instinct tells me that Durin would eventually be worth being implemented again (not necessarily via the spellbook, if someone comes up with other reasonable solutions)  :)

I'm really flattered, but don't mind me at all; Moderators are exactly supposed to lead discussions and take a prominent role in debates (obviously expected to withstand counter-arguments too). As for the poll, even in the most favourable scenario, it's quite unlikely that the votes would ever correspond to the people who actually took time to participate actively in the forum. It's a kind of inexorable fact one should simply accept: hard life of a Moderator  :D

As I previously wrote, this may be my last post in dealing with this thread. I really invite anyone interested in it to express itself and so provide other material to discuss about.

Fredius:

--- Zitat von: kmogon am  9. Aug 2016, 23:53 ---I think that saing "just ring hero" isn't as accuratly as we think . For us it just hero but for ET is tons of quotes , textures , skills which taked a lot of time to be like we can saw in 4.3 and I'm not sure that they just forget about it.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Well i'm not saying they should throw the whole model out of the mod itself, it can be a map-only feature or something. Durin is a very old asset, possibly from the days Edain just started, and there are plenty of old assets that aren't being used anymore. However many old assets can still be found in worldbuilder, so I guess he might end up that way too, if the team won't use him for the faction itself.


--- Zitat von: kmogon am  9. Aug 2016, 23:53 ---Aditionally I cannot agree with your ( Fredius ) point of view about durins meaning in dwarven culture . He is sb like dalajlama for dwarves ( or even Aragorn for Gondor ) who is mensioned  in every single dwarf scene in books and movies.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Ofcourse he has a great influence on Dwarven culture, but that's the only reason people want to add him. What other values does he have apart from the title of being the first Dwarf ever made? That is imo not a good reason to add a character to a faction. Might as well add Eorl the Young as Elite said, since he is seen the same way by the Rohirrim as Durin is for the Dwarves. Let this remain Edain Mod please, not Necromancer Mod :P.


--- Zitat von: kmogon am  9. Aug 2016, 23:53 ---And it's not nessesary to delete one of the spells
maybe if  fortres would be able to recruit durin for a large amoumt of money it would make every body happy . He still would be optional and would rise value of 10p spell .

--- Ende Zitat ---

I think this would be the best compromise if people want to add him, great thinking!

EDIT: Walk I will put my reply to your last post in a minute here, it won't be big as I don't want you to get stuck into this thread if you don't want to xD.

________________________ ________________________ ____________________


--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 10. Aug 2016, 00:11 ---No, apart from jokes, what I wanted to highlight about Ring heroes was that most of them do symbolise too fundamental lore aspects of their relative factions (as much as such ultimate spells wonderfully do). In Durin's case, I honestly refuse to think that he was chosen as a Ring hero not without lore reasons also (although the concept was replaced due to the new overhaul, I doubt that its lore value became insignificant overnight). As far as I grasped from the sources, he is indeed the greatest of Aulë's children and the fact that he reincarnated seven times in different timelines proved that right, in my opinion; leading him to be worshipped as the mythical ancestor of all and as the quintessence of the Dwarves themselves as a race.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Well my question about the lore wasn't a direct lash at you or something. I'm just very curious why Durin, in terms of lore, should be in the mod, when he hasn't done anything special apart from being the "first born" of the Dwarves. I also read in the article in tolkiengateway that it is not even sure that he reincarnated; his children just had similair appearance and behavior, that's why they "thought" he reincarnated to his children.

Tolkien didn't describe any specific powers that he had, unlike Gorthaur or Galadriel, so I have the feeling that he won't have the destructive abilities that can make him worth a 10pp spell, without sacrificing the lore aspect. I'm not critizing here, just curious, because my knowledge of the lore only goes this far :P.

SP19XX:
So having a quick read through this topic I can understand where people are coming from Lore wise in regards to there being no direct confirmation of Durin actually reincarnating as opposed to it being more of an inheritance of similarities through his direct heirs however I agree in the regards that Durin should still remain as a part of the Dwarven faction.

While it might not be a guaranteed fact that he did reincarnate it is the most common belief and thus in itself a display of faith from the dwarves that even beyond death their forefather will return to them when the need presents itself the most throughout the span of time and I feel that should be taken into account when considering this.

In regards to a means of implementing him perhaps some sort of defacto compromise between the current and previous ring hero systems can be merged. What if Thorin / Dain upon collecting the ring for themselves were given the ability to access the old ring hero function thereupon taking the ring to a statue of Durin giving up their benefits in exchange for reviving their forefather as the ring hero or having them sacrifice themselves for the benefit of their kin (dying in order to revive Durin - perhaps this could be a spell that replaces the Forges of Aule in their palantirs, where those two sacrifice themselves and Durin the Deathless arrives in their place and the ring is passed down to him in that method). This or a system more in line with that of Galadriel in which a choice is made to claim the ring for themselves or to use it to fuel the beliefs of the dwarves and bring Durin's reincarnation about at an elevated pace.

While those methods might seem a bit impractical and could be altered to fit a bit better I don't think Durin should be removed entirely but should be an effective secondary choice of Ring Hero (given that most factions barring a few have two potential candidates / options for the ring).

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: SP19XX am 25. Nov 2016, 22:53 ---In regards to a means of implementing him perhaps some sort of defacto compromise between the current and previous ring hero systems can be merged.

[...]This or a system more in line with that of Galadriel in which a choice is made to claim the ring for themselves or to use it to fuel the beliefs of the dwarves and bring Durin's reincarnation about at an elevated pace.

--- Ende Zitat ---

In my opinion, sticking to the points made in the previous passages, a merged system of two different Ring systems would be objectively too much complicated; intricate mechanics ought to remain rare exceptions, as they might result in boring/frustrating people instead of pleasing them. Concerning the choice aspect, that would probably contrast with another Ring system of the game, which is unique exactly for this quality: Galadriel's acceptance or refusal of the One Ring.

Nevertheless, I would still suggest the whole involvement of the One Ring be completely set aside from this proposal. The reasons why I envisaged that are both conceptual and technical; I guess one can easily collect them via browsing the comments of this thread. As the forthcoming 4.5 patch is being developed, I'm more and more doubting that Durin will ever return in the Mod. My will to see him back again is nonetheless well alive. Unless opposite pronouncements, I believe the discussion may continue without any problem. Were someone to share additional ideas, I would be much interested to know them.

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