[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions

Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

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AulëTheSmith:

--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am  5. Jun 2017, 01:15 ---Aule, the reason why the earthquake spell isn't going to be removed and the reason why Durin would NOT have all six of the fathers is because they are either dead or missing in action during the Third Age. This is not Dagor Dagorath mod, so Durin VII is the only person listed--we don't even know if other founding father reincarnate like Durin does. Given that Belegost and Nogrod had kings/leaders that went to Moria, I would say Durin is the only one that reincarnates.

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My dear dk, never thought about Dagor Dagorath even for a second. I didn't play, I don't play, and I won't play That mod ;). My fault I didn't explain better the reason behind a possible summon of Durin and/or seven fathers in the spellbook, I will do that,  I'm looking for some element in the lore  ;).
Anyway, Even if I'm not totally sure about your proposal for the reason I stated some comments before, the theme of reincarnation of Durin  is one of the most accredited and undoubtedly canonical :)
if we find a way to introduce Durin for all the three kingdoms using this theme, then I would be probably 101% satisfied :)

OakenShield224:
Another thing to consider is that each dwarven ring hero has a specific theme (Thorin's greed or Dain's defense obsession). Durin would need to have his own theme as well. The only one I can think of is something to do with Moria. Maybe he can craft mithril weapons and armour for other heroes and units as an example.

Concerning the Earthquake spell, could there just be a graphical change to the castles.This could explain how the dwarves can summon an earthquake any where as they would have the machinery in their base. The actual effect of the spell wouldn't change.

Walküre:
I wouldn't mind having Durin solely available for Erebor, given its magnitude as the mightiest Dwarven realm ever existed in Middle-earth (in the Third Age, at least). I'll let you discuss freely about lore-related matters; just, as I wrote earlier, I think it would be better to focus on refusal as a theme to follow, in order to detach from the One Ring. This is the advice I would feel like giving you. For example, the refusal of such artefact, parallel to Galadriel's case, could maybe lead the hero who refused to be blessed by the Valar (Aulë), thus bringing Durin's memory back to life. I'm quite sceptical about the possibility of the legendary hero becoming an own spell; he's always been a Ring feature and the article concerning the new (overhauled) Dwarven spellbook shows clearly that they're not willing to give him any role as a permanent/ordinary character in the faction. The answer is therefore likely to be linked with the One. The only difficulty will probably be the construction of the lore foundations which sustain the concept, but I'm sure you will sort that out well, under the guidance of Blue.

Regarding the earthquake, I think that's the right opportunity to propose our suggestion related to the Earth-Hammer. I hope Aulë and anyone interested will follow me in the new thread I am soon to open :)

AulëTheSmith:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  5. Jun 2017, 10:39 ---I wouldn't mind having Durin solely available for Erebor, given its magnitude as the mightiest Dwarven realm ever existed in Middle-earth (in the Third Age, at least). I'll let you discuss freely about lore-related matters; just, as I wrote earlier, I think it would be better to focus on refusal as a theme to follow, in order to detach from the One Ring. This is the advice I would feel like giving you. For example, the refusal of such artefact, parallel to Galadriel's case, could maybe lead the hero who refused to be blessed by the Valar (Aulë), thus bringing Durin's memory back to life. I'm quite sceptical about the possibility of the legendary hero becoming an own spell; he's always been a Ring feature and the article concerning the new (overhauled) Dwarven spellbook shows clearly that they're not willing to give him any role as a permanent/ordinary character in the faction. The answer is therefore likely to be linked with the One. The only difficulty will probably be the construction of the lore foundations which sustain the concept, but I'm sure you will sort that out well, under the guidance of Blue.

Regarding the earthquake, I think that's the right opportunity to propose our suggestion related to the Earth-Hammer. I hope Aulë and anyone interested will follow me in the new thread I am soon to open :)

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I will surely follow you  8-) the earthquake need some changes. What I always feel about it is that it has a clear mechanics and body, but it apparently comes from nowhere. I would say the spell it is substantial, but it needs a "soul", a proper spot and name :)

As for Durin: well, if the team is immovable about a spell introduction of the character, another path has to be chosen. I'm here to find an optimal solution too :)
Erebor is the most important of course, but mine is a game related consideration: I would prefer to have a more "symmetrical" concept, in order to not force the player to choose erebor if he/she want to revive Durin :) .

I'm always looking for information before writing, wise Diewalküre. And maybe I can also summon you to help me in the lore matters  xD :D

About lore, i would consider three different legends/beliefs:
 

* i read that there is a belief about the destiny of the dwarves after they die: the elves believe they will return to clay, from which they were initially created. After i read that i reconsidered the old Durin ring-mechanic : it was not so out of place reviving a statue using the power of the ring. A sort of inverse mechanism: if they return to stone when they die, with some power (evil or good) they can be resurrected injecting their souls into stone. But about this matter there is not so much.

* The Dwarves instead believe Aule will reserve them a place in the halls of Mandos, and, after the last battle, he will gather them again to help him rebuilding the world.   
Is there,so, any possibility for Aule to send back the dwarves in some phisical form to middle earth? Just as the Valar to with the Istari? I mean temporary. I've tried to imagine the hall of mandos as the hall of Odin: the dwarves, like the einherjar, await the right moment when they will descend again to fight (or built). Also about this matter the lore doesn't tell so much, and so i put in it also some element from our world legends (moreover, Tolkien himself takes inspiration from those legends).
I would eventually use this last piece of role+legend to justify a summon of Durin or all the 7 Fathers : a final gift from the hall of Mandos, Aule send back his firstborns to help his sons in a final and resolutive battle.
* the theme of reincarnation of the seven fathers, reported by dkblue :). This, like other two i listed above, is also a legend among the dwarves and there are not clear confirmations.

Quote from Silmarillion:


--- Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna ---Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hanger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever. Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.
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dkbluewizard:
Well I have listed the canon reasons innumerably. Thanks Diewalkure for the support. I would like to see Durin as an extra hero with Erebor as the son of Thorin III, and given the timeline I posted it makes sense. However, if Edain Team hates the idea of adding another hero to Erebor then I am okay with Durin being a summon by King Dain--similar to Galadriel's refusal of the One.

Aule: We can't find a canonical way to introduce Durin as canon to all three Dwarf Kingdoms. Durin VII is most likely born in 2965 after the events of the Hobbit. Thorin III would be 99 years old by this time, same age Dain was when he had Thorin III. There is no way to make a canonical argument for all three factions. Remember, Durin VI was killed by the Balrog and had to stay dead for quite awhile. Durin VII is known as the last incarnation for a reason. I am sorry I don't have better news for you, but this is the truth. True, reincarnation is not fully understood so it is up to the interpretation of the reader.

Oakenshield: I like the theme you semi set up for Durin, on the project I have been working on, this is what sets Thorin III's son above other Dwarfs, it is his ability to make weapons like Durin the deathless, after all, the famed artifact of Durin's ax was crafted by none-other than Durin himself. Now I don't make the items of Thorin III's son as good as Durin's I items, but they are better than anything that the Dwarfs have outside of Orcrist the Goblin Cleaver. So I think a mithril theme would be good but I don't feel it should detract from the Veterans of Khazadum.

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