23. Okt 2017, 02:37 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 

News:



Umfrage

What is the last faction you would like to see after the Rhun/Harad faction for the Third Age?

Dorwinion
22 (51.2%)
Arnor
3 (7%)
Forodwaith
2 (4.7%)
Nothing (Land of the Sun)
2 (4.7%)
Something Cool
4 (9.3%)
Hobbits and Unicorns
10 (23.3%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 42

Autor Thema: Dorwinion Faction  (Gelesen 3618 mal)

Offline Walküre

  • Edain Community Moderator
  • Dúnadan des Nordens
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 3.107
  • Queen of Valinórë and Arda.
    • DieWalküre's profile on ModDB
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #15 am: 18. Dez 2016, 17:43 »
Maybe Diewalkure, you could merge this with the Dorwinion Proposal?

Sure.

Offline dkbluewizard

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 105
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #16 am: 18. Dez 2016, 17:59 »
To Diewalkure, thank you.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline lordoflinks

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 88
    • Lordoflink's profile on ModDB
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #17 am: 24. Dez 2016, 02:23 »
I shall now present my proposal for a Dorwinion fraction. Firstly, two disclaimers:
1. I have beem heavily inspired by Divide and Conuqer's interpretation of Dorwinion
2. I shall ignore semi canonical names, as I can't be bothered to research them; feel free to improve my suggestion with them however

I propose at the beginning of the game a Dowinion player selects from two sub-fractions, in a similar manner to the Dwarfs; they either pick the Vinyard Court or the Cult of the Shadow. This is becuase, assuming the other mystery fraction is an Evil Men fraction, we will have 5 evil and 5 good fractions; and hence I believe Dorwinion should be gray. The theme of Dorwinion is an architecture style based on Ancient Greece; the nation has never really fought in or started a conflict and hence they are a mercantile nation that is highly culture; with the advent of Rhun however it looks increasingly likely that Rhun will invade and annex the Land of Wine and hence Dorwinion enters into a civil war. One fraction, the Cult of the Shadow, believes standing aginst Rhun will result in Dorwinion's destruction; and there is little they can do to stop Rhun, and by extent Sauron, and hence they align themselves with Sauron. The Vinyard Court however believes that by allying with the Avari Elves and the Orcani Dwarfs, Dorwinion can stand against the Shadow and make a diffrence. This civil war has also affected the Blue Wizards with Alatar siding with the Cult and Pallando with the Court. I believe by splitting up the Wizards it allows us to have two powerful heroes in the same fraction, if they were both avalaible for recuirtment at once they could not be as powerful, in addtion it allows us to position the CUlts as evil, keeping with the themes of Middle-Earth. To upgrade their buildings Dorwinion uses a spell. The Court is defensive with a focus on caverly while the cult is agressive and a focuse on infantry.

Dorwinion is a walled castle nation, and on their castle they can build the following: Villa- Decreases cost of heavy infantry; Tooler- Descreases cost of Cavarly and contains forged blade upgrade; Infantry Academy- Trains Hoplites and Long Blades, contains the Banner Carrrier uprgrade; Specialist Acadmey- Trains Companion Caverly (Switch between lance and sword, no shield) and Archers and contains flaming arrows and pure bloodlines (Better horses- New Texture for the Horse) upgrades; Engineering Academy- Allows the contsruction of Engineers (Can build towers, onogers and battering rams outside castle) , improved engineering (Heavy armour for siege quipment), fire arrows upgrade for buildings, and heavy armour upgrades; heroic statute; plaza (Place to drink wine- heals units); Vinyard Court (Court only)- Trains Paladins (Elite unit- 3 limit) and Templers (Heavily armoured Hoplites that can change between sword, spear and bow via stance command), as well as a second uprgarde for armour provided by the elves, the Avari Armour upgrade (Gives units gold armour), vine clad walls upgrade (New texture for walls and towers adn gate + automatically heal towers and walls and gate+ more armour), it also acts as a tower; Cult Encalve (Cult only)- Trains Druids (Healers) and Cultits (Long ranged spellcasters that deal heavy damge, in other words shoot fire); gives the enchanted blade upgrade as a second tier, enchanted walls (Adds aura of fear on walls, towers and gate), acts as a tower and model is a greek temple;
Wall Buildings are:
Tower, Wine Fountain (Heals units), Mirror tower (Court, acts as long range siege by redirecting and enhancing sun rays), Cult tower (Cult, shoots fire), Gate buildings are heroic statues, and Posten Gate

On external plots Dorwinion can build: Outposts: Rebel Stronghold (Cult only, uses Rohan Fortress from 3.8, with uprgrades)- Trains very agressive rebel units (Rebel Horsemen, Rebel Infantry [Can switch between sword and Javalins], Rebel Axmen (Building destroyers), and the rebel lord Selene (Female mass slayer); Avari Stronghold (Court Only, uses Elven stronghold from BFME II with uprgrades)- Trains Avari Units (Mounted archers and Mounted Lancers) and two heroes, the Avari Lord Dalenmean; and the Ambassador of Mirkwoord Tauriel. The other outpost building is the normal outpost.   
Settlements: Estate, Vinyard, Orcani Bastion (Court)- Trains Dreor Lord of the Orcani and Orcani Nobles, acts as a tower and upgrades similarly to Grey HEavens Tower only with exp from kills; Milita Stockade- Trains milita (Free units of equal quality to orcs) and Fendro LEader of Milita , Unit supporter of milita, and acts as a tower

Heroes from the castle are:
Court- Slyvana Herald of the Elves (Scout) who summons Elven Herals (Mounted) permently with limit of 2; Havar, Paladin of the Court- Unit Supporter; Mentora, Female Paladin of the Court- Unit and Hero interferer; Vromtag, Royal Guard of the EMpress- Hero Killer; The Empersd- Fraction wide supporter; Pallando- Building suppoerter and Mass slayer
Cult- Turlough, Infiltator- Scout and Unit Interferer; Cakvor, Druid Leader- Unit supporter; Gortug, Cult Leader- Mass slayer; Ajax, Rebel Son of the Emperess- Mass slayer/ Hero Killer; Alaatr- Hero killer, unit interferer
Ring heroes are the Wizrds and the Fraction leaders

Spells:
Row 1- Authority of the Royal Line (Upgrades building, one use from 1 -> 2; two uses from 2 -> 3); Dorwinion Wine (Heals); Horns of the East (Horns spell)
Row 2- Hills of Dorwinion (Landscape spell that buffs your and allys units);Arrow volley ; Lone Tower; "Into the East" (Upgrades Wizard hero)
Row 3- Glory of the Edain (Weather spell that buffs your own units and leaves the enemy units in terror); Dalian Allies (Summons small force from Dale- no heroes); March of the Ent-Wives (Summon Ent-Wives; can be used as some may have fled to area around Dorwinion)
Row 4- Allies from Afar ([Cult] Summons massive force from Rhun led by the Emperor/ [Court] Summons force of Mirkwood ELves, Men of Dale, and dwarfs of Erebor led by King Dain, King Brand and Thraundil); Glory of the First Age- Imbues selected units with increases strength and immortality for a short time     
« Letzte Änderung: 24. Dez 2016, 07:07 von lordoflinks »
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Offline Fredius

  • Edain Betatester
  • Grenzwächter Loriens
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 653
  • It's good to be evil
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #18 am: 24. Dez 2016, 02:32 »
I actually love your idea lordoflinks! This makes the faction very interesting and different from the others. Especially the Blue Wizards, they might have killed each other in the civil war, and therefore never returned to the Undying Lands! Though I wouldn't use iconic historical names like Hoplites, Templars or Ajax; Middle-Earth is a fantasy realm and should remain like that. Also:

Zitat
The Court is defensive with a focus on caverly while the cult is agressive and a focuse on infantry.

Cavalry isnt really a defensive specialty :P, but rather offensive. Though I like your current unit roster.

Offline lordoflinks

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 88
    • Lordoflink's profile on ModDB
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #19 am: 24. Dez 2016, 02:55 »
Thank you, for loving my ideas.
My image of the Court is that they're fraction that builds up a solid defence and sends cavalry out to harass and burn their opponents buildings while holding out before moving to crush them with their infantry, while the Cult is more of a horde spam fraction. 
If you have better name suggestions please add them. All names are subject to renaming by those more skilled in the linguistics of middle earth than I am; perhaps Vinyard Guard for the Templers, and Vinyard Paladins. Hoplites I feel is as generic as a term as pikemen and gives Dorwinion an unique flavour, heroes names are of course up to debate barring Tauriel who we all know is from the Hobbit Movies.
I have added fortress upgrades and wall buildings to Dorwinion.
I will say this much, coming up with spells for Dorwinion was a pain, hence why I have resorted to two spells based on the first age. Allies from Afar summons different units based on which sub-fraction you pick, as it is possible to change the effect of a spell in a dwarf like system.
« Letzte Änderung: 24. Dez 2016, 03:20 von lordoflinks »
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Offline dkbluewizard

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 105
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #20 am: 24. Dez 2016, 08:22 »
I actually like this idea LordofLinks, I think I can get behind a divided Dorwinion faction. However, I see some issues with the lore of heroes and historical units names. We'll work on that but this is a really good start.

I have a massive list of characters we could use, though I like the men that LordofLinks made up, I do suggest that Lenwe may be a possible candidate for "The Court" side. Since Pallando should be weaker, it might be nice having Lenwe or Daeron (since he went to the East...FACT) helping Pallando (Romestamo) out.

Although, it never says the Blue wizards were allied to Sauron, but if what you present is Alatar becoming more like Saruman, I am okay with--but I think we may be shifting too far from the canon of the Blue Wizards, after all, they failed but they were the best of friends. While we could "ASSUME" they had a falling out like Gandalf and Saruman, it is a big assumption.

I understand that we try to give Sauron as many Maia allies as possible in middle earth, but I am not too sure about Alatar given his nickname from Tolkien was Darkness Slayer. So Darkness Slayer seems like an odd name if he is working with the Dark Lord.

I am all for your idea, but there needs to be some canonical issues flushed out man. Good job overall!
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline lordoflinks

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 88
    • Lordoflink's profile on ModDB
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #21 am: 24. Dez 2016, 10:03 »
I actually like this idea LordofLinks, I think I can get behind a divided Dorwinion faction. However, I see some issues with the lore of heroes and historical units names. We'll work on that but this is a really good start.

I have a massive list of characters we could use, though I like the men that LordofLinks made up, I do suggest that Lenwe may be a possible candidate for "The Court" side. Since Pallando should be weaker, it might be nice having Lenwe or Daeron (since he went to the East...FACT) helping Pallando (Romestamo) out.

Although, it never says the Blue wizards were allied to Sauron, but if what you present is Alatar becoming more like Saruman, I am okay with--but I think we may be shifting too far from the canon of the Blue Wizards, after all, they failed but they were the best of friends. While we could "ASSUME" they had a falling out like Gandalf and Saruman, it is a big assumption.

I understand that we try to give Sauron as many Maia allies as possible in middle earth, but I am not too sure about Alatar given his nickname from Tolkien was Darkness Slayer. So Darkness Slayer seems like an odd name if he is working with the Dark Lord.

I am all for your idea, but there needs to be some canonical issues flushed out man. Good job overall!
On the topic of the Blue Wizards; firstly I may have simplified things a bit too much for the sake of not having to write too much; what I mean is that both wizards wish for Sauron to fall; however one looks at the big picture and sees Dorwinion is far from any allies bar small strongholds of elves and dwarfs and makes the decision that if Dorwinion goes to war innocent lives will be lost for no purpose; as according to him Dorwinion can make no difference and he may even know the true battle will lie with Gondor and Mordor. The other wishes to make a stand, and refuses to grant any concession to the Shadow; even if it means the loss of innocent lives for little purpose. In this context I feel it makes little difference which wizard is on which side, as they are both right and  both wrong. I subscribe to Tolkien's original work; when they came with the other Istari and not before, and hence I believed they failed which is evidenced by the ascendancy of Rhun and the siege of Erebor I feel; because if they were capable of helping why did they allow Rhun to grow powerful enough to assault both Erebor and Gondor at the same time. To summarise the 'evil' wizard is not evil; rather they pursue a just goal of preserving as many lives as possible, when their sacrifice would be in vain, even if it means bowing to the enemy.

Edit names as you will; the only point I will not budge on is that I think Dorwinion should have slightly more female heroes, to increase its uniqueness, hence why the ruler of the Court side is an Empress. I feel Lenwe as a hero is inappropriate as he stopped then journey just west of the Misty Mountains in the sight of them; hence he probably joined Lothlorien or Mirkwood. Daeron could be the herald; I do however think it would be a nice touch to have Tauriel as a permanent hero in this fraction in the Avari stronghold. On the point of unit names, as we are dealing with a region of the world that has less information than Rhun, (I think evem the Ice men of Lossarnac have more info about them than Dorwinion) I think we do have to make compromises if we wish to craft them into an unique fraction, however as the one thing we know about them is that they produce wine it leads me to believe they are implied to be inspired from Ancient Greece, if they have an inspiration at all.

If you do have alternative names, please suggest them, I felt the names I picked, bar heroes and Templars (To which I've suggested the alternative name of Vinyard Guard), (Paladin is okay as the definition is "a knight renowned for heroism and chivalry."; they do not need to be 'holy') I feel the names strike a balance between lore and gameplay as there is no point calling something an obscure world in sindarin as you can't recognise it at first glance which is bad for multiplayer. One word about cannoicalness; I feel we need to take it into lesser acount when dealing with areas such as Rhun, Agmar and Dorwinion due to the lack of information available; for instance if Angamr was completely 'cannon' we would not have the wonderful Angmar fraction we do.
Once again if you have better names, spit them out and we can debate about them.
« Letzte Änderung: 24. Dez 2016, 10:06 von lordoflinks »
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Offline dkbluewizard

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 105
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #22 am: 24. Dez 2016, 16:15 »
LordofLinks.

I think your proposal is still perfect, and like you I do subscribe to Tolkien's work as well. In regards to which wizard supports who, I remember that Romestamo means (East-helper) that could mean Pallando is the bad wizard and not Alatar. Pallando could be the wizard for the cult of shadow, would make sense since he wields a scimitar in 3.81 more of an eastern weapon.

After much thought and research however, I see why you chose Alatar as the bad wizard and I agree. So don't count what I just wrote above. Pallando, is of Namo's people so obviously he would see the future and folly of serving the dark lord. He would then further taint himself during the dominion of men hence he could not return to Valinor either. Perhaps he would then try to become a mighty king himself in the 4th age since he foresaw this as the dominion of weak men.

I agree that they failed and started "cults" that which you have demonstrated perfectly. I will get totally 100% behind your idea if we decide to put Pallando with the Cult of the Shadow. I think that is the best compromise, it shows how the blue wizards failed and started cults, and it also goes with Tolkien Gateway to how they drew forces off from the east.

I also agree that they came in TA 1000 with the other istari and not in the Second Age. That seems stupid. Why tolkien thought about them arriving then is really weird.

On the subject of Lenwe, he did not go west. He saw the MM and went South of the Anduin river. He then turned back. If you follow South of the Anduin and where he turned back, that about puts him next to the Rhun Forest & canoncially next to Dorwinion.

The elves that went to Mirkwood were remnants of the Green Elves that Denethor had left over from Beleriand during the First Age. So Lenwe wouldn't be right there. It would make sense as Denethor eventually died. It never says Lenwe died (he's an immortal elf). So to say that he is at Dorwinion is not that far fetched at all and I think this is okay.

Now I will throw out heroic names and you can decide where they go.

The Court:
Pallando (Since he is of Namo's people, I could see him here, especially if Daeron and Lenwe are included).
Tauriel (Herald of the Elves)
Daeron (Paladin of the Court/Unit Supporter) fits perfectly for him.
Lenwe (Hero Killer)
Insert Female Name here* (The Empress)

The Cult of Shadow:
Alatar (Mass Slayer, but I think he should have some hero killer aspect, he is the Chief of Orome's people...Lords of the Hunt).
Bladorthin II (Perhaps he is the rebel son of the Empress)
Onya (Druid Leader perhaps)

(not too good with female names, though I can give you a list at this link here: http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/names.pdf )
For the rest of the heroes just use canonical names from the list above.

I think that link will solve all our issues. This is perfect and I think it is ready to be implemented (if Edain cares that is  ;) ).
« Letzte Änderung: 24. Dez 2016, 22:08 von dkbluewizard »
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline lordoflinks

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 88
    • Lordoflink's profile on ModDB
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #23 am: 29. Dez 2016, 13:41 »
Your ideas sound wonderful, with two exceptions. Firstly I loved the stroke of genius of making one of the paladins an elf, such a move suggests the court side is more open to other races; while the cult is more xenophobic as it is solely compiled of human heroes. About the Blue Wizards; to tell the truth I just picked them at random so any fitting by names is by pure chance, I really don't mind which wizard goes with which side. I shall leave it up to you as you obviously know more about names than me. Before I address my problems I wish to throw an idea at you.

What would you think of making it so that the units from the academies differed depending on which side one favoured; by this I do not mean completely different units as with the dwarfs; rather court units are less numerous but more powerful, with a single ability and the ability to gain experience up to lvl 10 (The last idea may not work). This is to represent both the aid of the elves in training and crafting even basic armour and weapons, but also to hint the court's armies is made up of both elves and humans and as such can learn more; the cult units would be more numerous and less powerful and lacking the special bonus the court gets as their recruits are drawn from peasants and they lack the aid of the elves, but would be vastly cheaper and take less time to produce. To summarise the Court is quality and the Cult is quantity.

Now I shall tackle the problems I had with your ideas:
1. Whichever wizard would end up on the Cult side should be a hero killer with mass slayer elements, as I feel this counters the Court well as that wizard can massacre through their limited troops. The Court wizard is a mass slayer with hero killer elements to counter the Cult's endless tide of militia.
2. Tauriel should be recruited at the enclave. The role of the Herald is that they are an early game mounted scout that can also summon powerful early game mounted eleven troops that cannot upgrade or level up, the troops are purely to allow the Court some breathing room, as such it would be inappropriate for any bar an avari elf to occupy the role. The Herald also represents the first hand of friendship from the elves towards the court and allows the elves' presence to be felt even without an outpost.  Tauriel symbolises that Dorwinion is not alone in their fight, and other nations do care about them, in addition she is a ranged hero that the Court lacks. 

Some thematic concerns occurred to me. First I think the court side should be implied to have developed a matriarchal ruling system rather than one based on males, this highlights just how alien Dorwinion is due to its distance from other 'good' nations, hence the prince's betrayal is especially shocking and carries the implication he wishes to rule in spite of tradition. This could manifest in game by units (Especially court units) having several different voices when you select them; for example a court hoplite could  have its select lines spoken by a female and male human, and a female and male elf.

My final topic is heroes. While your ideas are very good, we need more heroes. I am wondering if there was someway we could ask the whole english community to brainstorm heroes, perhaps as a subsection in the RPG forum, with the aim of creating a roster for the Court of a mixed male/female, and elf/human and the Cult of a traditional ratio and humans only (The reasoning being that the Cult's heroes are from rural areas where traditional values still persist, and they are xenophobic towards elves in an attempt to please Rhun). Perhaps this could continue into a full blown RPG (I don't know how to run or set one up :( )

I think our final aim should be to have a finished proposal (PDF or perhaps ask the Wiki is we could create a 'dummy' page using their fraction layout) with each concept (Unit, building, spell or hero) having a image to draw inspiration from, a description, abilities and a lore justification if needed.
Also, thanks for the link and sorry for my late reply.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Offline Melkor Bauglir

  • Bündnisgenosse der Elben und Menschen
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.195
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #24 am: 29. Dez 2016, 17:01 »
To be honest, I didn't really read most of this thread, but since this won't attack any of my following points, it doesn't matter for this. Well, I think, Dorwinion sounds like a horrible idea. ;)

First of all, we know nothing about it, apart from speculations and to build an entire faction on the basis of fan-fiction, must be my top worst idea of the day. Dorwinion is one of those realms which are nice for the sake of completeness of a world, but simply aren't explained well enough. Which brings me to number 2:
Dorwinion is / was ENTIRELY noninvested in every war, Edain is built around. Since we know a lot of things about the Easterlings or Haradrim and since they participated a lot in numerous wars (and since Mordor doesn't necessarily need them...), they are an excellent idea. I could litereally vote for "Hobbits and Unicorns", claim that I only voted for the Unicorns and still "support" an idea that is just as relevant for any event in the WotR. I mean seriously: Forodwaith? [uglybunti]
Thirdly, from no point of view at all, Tolkien was really interested in creating a relatable / realistic world with morally grey people -he reinvented the Devil, what do you expect? His entire philosophy requires good and evil to be seperate entities with empty intersection (perhaps with the exception that good things can partly be corrupted), thus a neutral faction is completely not in line with any canon. And yes, I'm the same guy who just pointed out, that he thinks, "canonizing" destroys more then it helps. However, this argument doesn't really hold here, since a) there is a more elegant way and b) giving the player the choice between "Vineyard Court" and "Cult of the Shadow" sounds like giving Mordor the opportunity to become the savior of ME. The name alone is enough for me to not take this faction serious, also I feel reminded on Warhammer stuff, which is definitely a bad sign in this context. :D

I know myself, that I phrased this more extreme than necessary, but in a way I guess this is my honest opinion.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Voted for "Hobbits and Unicorns"!
« Letzte Änderung: 29. Dez 2016, 17:06 von Melkor Bauglir »

Offline Fredius

  • Edain Betatester
  • Grenzwächter Loriens
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 653
  • It's good to be evil
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #25 am: 29. Dez 2016, 19:15 »
That's a bit rude don't you think? These guys have put in a lot of thoughts into their concept, and you call it the worst idea of the day, while you even say that you didn't read the whole thread?? Why isn't it possible for Dorwinion to be neutral? They are located right next to Rhun (if not inside of Rhun itself, since Rhun just means east and encompasses multiple clans), but they trade with the Elves of Mirkwood, and possibly with the "Evil" kingdoms of Rhun as well. There is nothing wrong with neutrality, they might have had to pick a side during the War of the Ring, but then if you read the last posts a bit better then you know that the current proposed Dorwinion faction isn't neutral anylonger, but rather in a civil war, which forces them to pick sides.

Since they lay right next to Rhun, it can be entirely possible that there were people inside Dorwinion who sympathized more with Rhun, and rather choose to fight for them. And ofcourse there are people who sympathize with the Elves living in Dorwinion (yes there might have been Elves there, I suggest this article to everyone), and rather choose to fight for them instead. This is a very possible scenario, and the guys who made this proposal did a great job in trying to make this gameplay wise possible, and make it a very unique faction that differs from the rest.

I don't think you should judge a proposal because of the names for the different elements. Names are always up to debate, and if you don't like Vineyard Court and Cult of the Shadow then why not just come up with new ideas, so that you can take this proposal "seriously"?

Personally I agree with you that I'd rather see Harad and Rhun become seperate, but it does not mean that people can't think of other ideas different from ours.
« Letzte Änderung: 29. Dez 2016, 19:19 von Fredius »

Offline Walküre

  • Edain Community Moderator
  • Dúnadan des Nordens
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 3.107
  • Queen of Valinórë and Arda.
    • DieWalküre's profile on ModDB
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #26 am: 29. Dez 2016, 22:20 »
I know myself, that I phrased this more extreme than necessary, but in a way I guess this is my honest opinion.

And honest opinions are always welcome. Just, if one were really aimed to give a meaningful contribution to the discussion, it should be better to go through proposals very carefully and consider the particular context of said proposals. In this case, the main concept was born while taking for granted that the hypothetical Evil Men faction will be a single faction, which is something I support and of which I understand the reasons: a more concrete chance to stick to the atmosphere of the cinematographic trilogy and thus to make usage of the elements we are already provided with, without the need to tamper with the faction via too much fictional additions. In this perspective, it's quite obvious that, on the other hand, this proposed Dorwinion faction will inexorably need some fictional additions whatsoever, given the scarcity of many sources. This fact shouldn't surprise anyone then.

Furthermore, it's the very presence of this sort of exceptions (a neutral realm and a mixed culture) that makes Arda realistic. The eternal conflict between Good and Evil does occupy a fundamental position, but that doesn't mean that others things can't take place in the meantime, as a secondary narration beside the central theme of the story. Even more, I would say, if we deal with the universe of Men or of those mysterious lands of the East. It's exactly this enigmatic touch that grants them their particular connotation: voluble people that can't be ordered precisely neither within the Good's ranks, nor within the Evil's ones. Just think about the condition of those Men who happen to serve Sauron and how their case is completely different to the one of Orcs. In this sense, this quotation of Faramir always reminds me of Middle-earth's (Men's) multicoloured nature.

Zitat
The enemy? His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem. You wonder what his name is, where he came from. And if he was really evil at heart. What lies or threats led him on this long march from home. If he would not rather have stayed there in peace. War will make corpses of us all.

In the end, proposals may always be improved and perfected. More important than the final result is perhaps the fact that multiple people strive to share their thoughts and find a just compromise. Otherwise, if one is just willing to belittle other people's concepts (often regardless of those people's efforts), one had better keep one's opinions for oneself.

Offline Melkor Bauglir

  • Bündnisgenosse der Elben und Menschen
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.195
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #27 am: 30. Dez 2016, 01:47 »
OK, since I am responsible for this, some things might need clarification.
First of all, it is completely and utterly uninmportant that I didn't read the last pages with respect to me thinking, Dorwinion is an extremely bad idea for a faction! I could possibly explained this more, but all the reasons mentioned above are independant of not knowing the past discussion (that is in three short terms: speculation, uninvolvement in the WotR and "grey faction").
Secondly, I called the idea of using fan-fiction as the basis of the concept the worst idea of the day, not the entire concept. I might point out, that I like certain units in the concept, like the Rebel Infantry and Engineers, but even if that's the case: They'd be better off with the Men of the East. If we really need this, I might add as well that things like fire-throwing Cultists / Towers sound... well... over-the-top might be the right term.
And yes, I have to concede, that names are open to change.



One thing in general: What if you read a proposal and think that it simply has no place in the mod? This isn't even restricted to this concept, quite the contrary! Really, what do you do then? The thing is, if I read a concept and the core-idea is just not for me, which means any base for compromise doesn't exist, I can't find a logical idea to "give it a try", so to speak. This isn't personal, but in a way really writing elaborate criticism about this would require me to say, "well, first change everything, untill we have another concept, then we may talk again". ;) And this in itself is hardly a constructive way of arguing, thus I prefer getting to the point immediately. Because it literally doesn't help anyone, if the core message gets buried under 4 paragraphs of text, all open to interpretation.

To conclude, some specifix answers:
Zitat
In this perspective, it's quite obvious that, on the other hand, this proposed Dorwinion faction will inexorably need some fictional additions whatsoever, given the scarcity of many sources. This fact shouldn't surprise anyone then.
Yes, I agree. "Some fictional additions" as you said are however something completely different than a faction, were every single unit and hero is fictional! The entire setting is speculation (civil war), the entire unit roster is fictional (partly well designed, partly badly designed) and the entire hero roster is fictional. I could also argue, that it is "uncanonical" (Gosh, I hate this word! xD) for one obvious reason: The prominence of female heroes which are extremely minor in Tolkien's works WITH RESPECT TO THEIR PRESENCE IN BATTLE. (I felt forced to write this in capitals, otherwise Walküre might have destroyed me. ;))

Zitat
In this sense, this quotation of Faramir always reminds me of Middle-earth's (Men's) multicoloured nature.......
Yes... About that, it appears, that I forgot about that quote... 8-| I might also add, that this might be one of Tolkien's legendary "write this, say this"-moments: Faramir says, there the Men of the East aren't intrinsically evil -eventhough during the entire history of Arda, there was at most an era of non-aggression between them and the west. Yes, he describes them as brave (much braver than orcs!), but still there was never peace or say, harmony, between east and west. It's like the elf lady we hear so much about who is said to be one of the wisest creatures and greatest leaders against Sauron in ME, eventhough she fails to check the ominous dark fortress, literally right across the Anduin, whose presence was known to her directly (Eorls ride) for 400 (!!!) years and of whose malicious interests there was no doubt.  ;) OK, Lorien-DG is 100 miles, but honestly? 400 years? And it's not like the elves were doing much during this time. Seriously, in 1617, Newton hadn't even published his Axiom's, thus physics was basically just philosophy. (Of course, that's not my point and obviously hyperbole! My point is, that Tolkien did this more than once, where someone is said to be something, he / she really isn't, coming to think about. :D)



To end this perhaps with an offer: Do you really want me to continue arguing about this? As I was saying, I don't see any basis for this, apart from checking which parts could find use elsewhere. I don't specifically mind, but I don't think it's getting us anywhere. And it's certainly more delightfull to not constantly read my slightly sarcastic comments. xD
I don't see this as a rejection, but there is really not much room for argument here!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
« Letzte Änderung: 30. Dez 2016, 01:51 von Melkor Bauglir »

Offline lordoflinks

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 88
    • Lordoflink's profile on ModDB
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #28 am: 30. Dez 2016, 04:18 »
@Melkor Bauglir
Greetings. To you I would like to say this; if you wish to comment on an idea negatively then do so like this "I do not support this proposal, as I feel it is non-canonical and does not fit"; that is all, a rant accomplishes nothing; feel free to offer constructive criticism. If you are getting angry at a 'non-canonical' fraction however, I wish you to view Angmar, as that fraction is just as non-canonical as this proposal in terms of the heroes and men of Carn-Dum.
To answer a few specific points:

Cultists- They are intended to be 'over the top' as Tolkien always has associated actual magic, the fire ball kind, with evil; yes if they were good it would be inappropriate but they are not; personally I don't see them any more wrong than the loremasters and sorcerers of Angmar; plus they offer a unique siege mechanic. 

Female Heroes- Dorwinion is isolated, and as it does not appear very much in the histories; it has likely experienced a long era of peace; as such I have envisioned this, coupled with eleven influence, has allowed traditional gender roles to break down in the nobility, I do not argue this has extended to the peasants, (And indeed the 'peasant' fraction, the cult has a more traditional ratio) but rather in the upper class it has become more accepted for a woman to become a knight; due to the fact prior to the speculated civil war the role was little more then symbolic in terms of fighting actual enemies, that is not to say they did not train.  I feel such flavour only in the court side increases the diversity of fractions. 

If you have specific constructive advice, please share it; to appease your comments so far would require a completely new proposal. If you have no constructive advice, please refrain from anything more; others have said what I would have bar one more thing. The chance of any idea in the off-topic section working its way into the mod is very very remote, so in all likelihood your wish shall come to pass. 
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Offline dkbluewizard

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 105
Re: Dorwinion Faction
« Antwort #29 am: 30. Dez 2016, 04:19 »
Well I have heard everyone's thoughts on the matter and I won't be as truculent as Melkor, when expressing my opinions.

Diewalkure, LordofLinks, and Fredius thanks for the support. I feel LordofLinks struck gold and I edited my post...I wonder why it didn't save. But to LordofLinks, I totally support the idea that Alatar is with the Cult of Shadow and that the Cult is more xenophobic than the Court. Hence is why I suggested the Court having more elf related heroes, if you need more heroes, I can definitely pull out more elf characters in that region.

Now Lordoflinks, in regards to the quality vs quantity, I can get behind this, however I would like to see differing units just to make the faction feel different from the good side and evil side. I would like to build on what you have proposed (which was a good idea) and go from there. I agree we should get Edain Wiki involved.

Now Melkor, you said you voted for Hobbits and Unicorns. I can honestly say from a canonical standpoint that the Blue Wizards, to be playable with a faction, would have to go here. They failed in their mission, but based on the appendixes, lost tales, notes, and interviews of Tolkien, we can only surmise what the Blue Wizards did and who they were with.

Dorwinion offers us the answer we need. You may not like the idea at all but I think it is a great addition to offer something as close to Tolkien's canon as possible and implement the blue wizards.

Let us see what we know from the canon Melkor:

1. Dorwinion is an area in the East
2. The Blue Wizards went to the East
3. Lenwe went South of the Anduin before turning back
4. Daeron went into the East.
5. Bladorthin was a King of a Kingdom in the East and ordered many spears for his armies. They were never paid for or delivered (probably till after Smaug was killed).
6. Bladorthin died sometime in the Third Age as referenced by the Dwarfs and Bilbo.
7. Dorwinion is still an area that managed to survive despite Bladorthin's death as referenced by the book the Hobbit.

So there are many canonical elements implemented here. If you dislike the fact that LordofLinks presented a female roster, we could change it around a bit. I agree that a King is more befitting of Dorwinion, but I do not object to having more females in the hero roster, (I'm not sexist--not saying you are, just being loquacious in general).

Angmar was made up of such elements as presented. We have what canon is available and are building on it. If what you say were to be implemented, we would have to take away Angmar, as they are just not canonical enough.

So all in all, I like the concept of the Dorwinion faction. Melkor, you are right that the civil war is completely made up, but it is not out of the realm of possibility since

A) Gondor had a civil war
B) Numenor had their differences
C) Dorwinion's region would have to be this way given that Mordor, Rhun, Erebor, etc. all lie around and near them.
D) They trade with everyone (as referenced in Lost Tales)
E) Avari Elves and Men make up the region.

So I do not feel this is entirely inaccurate but is as close to canon as possible, hence the canonical characters listed.

LordofLinks, I don't know if you would be interested in these elf names, but these are elves that disappeared or may still be around:

Galathil (Celeborn's brother)
Nellas
Nimrodel
Mithrellas
Morwe (more from the notes)
Nurwe (again from the notes)

as for men, we would have to make them up using the canon of tolkien's linguistics as referenced by that site i sent you guys.

Continue the good work and I am still in favor of this.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.