[en] The Prancing Pony > Other
Dorwinion Faction
dkbluewizard:
I actually like this idea LordofLinks, I think I can get behind a divided Dorwinion faction. However, I see some issues with the lore of heroes and historical units names. We'll work on that but this is a really good start.
I have a massive list of characters we could use, though I like the men that LordofLinks made up, I do suggest that Lenwe may be a possible candidate for "The Court" side. Since Pallando should be weaker, it might be nice having Lenwe or Daeron (since he went to the East...FACT) helping Pallando (Romestamo) out.
Although, it never says the Blue wizards were allied to Sauron, but if what you present is Alatar becoming more like Saruman, I am okay with--but I think we may be shifting too far from the canon of the Blue Wizards, after all, they failed but they were the best of friends. While we could "ASSUME" they had a falling out like Gandalf and Saruman, it is a big assumption.
I understand that we try to give Sauron as many Maia allies as possible in middle earth, but I am not too sure about Alatar given his nickname from Tolkien was Darkness Slayer. So Darkness Slayer seems like an odd name if he is working with the Dark Lord.
I am all for your idea, but there needs to be some canonical issues flushed out man. Good job overall!
lordoflinks:
--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 24. Dez 2016, 08:22 ---I actually like this idea LordofLinks, I think I can get behind a divided Dorwinion faction. However, I see some issues with the lore of heroes and historical units names. We'll work on that but this is a really good start.
I have a massive list of characters we could use, though I like the men that LordofLinks made up, I do suggest that Lenwe may be a possible candidate for "The Court" side. Since Pallando should be weaker, it might be nice having Lenwe or Daeron (since he went to the East...FACT) helping Pallando (Romestamo) out.
Although, it never says the Blue wizards were allied to Sauron, but if what you present is Alatar becoming more like Saruman, I am okay with--but I think we may be shifting too far from the canon of the Blue Wizards, after all, they failed but they were the best of friends. While we could "ASSUME" they had a falling out like Gandalf and Saruman, it is a big assumption.
I understand that we try to give Sauron as many Maia allies as possible in middle earth, but I am not too sure about Alatar given his nickname from Tolkien was Darkness Slayer. So Darkness Slayer seems like an odd name if he is working with the Dark Lord.
I am all for your idea, but there needs to be some canonical issues flushed out man. Good job overall!
--- Ende Zitat ---
On the topic of the Blue Wizards; firstly I may have simplified things a bit too much for the sake of not having to write too much; what I mean is that both wizards wish for Sauron to fall; however one looks at the big picture and sees Dorwinion is far from any allies bar small strongholds of elves and dwarfs and makes the decision that if Dorwinion goes to war innocent lives will be lost for no purpose; as according to him Dorwinion can make no difference and he may even know the true battle will lie with Gondor and Mordor. The other wishes to make a stand, and refuses to grant any concession to the Shadow; even if it means the loss of innocent lives for little purpose. In this context I feel it makes little difference which wizard is on which side, as they are both right and both wrong. I subscribe to Tolkien's original work; when they came with the other Istari and not before, and hence I believed they failed which is evidenced by the ascendancy of Rhun and the siege of Erebor I feel; because if they were capable of helping why did they allow Rhun to grow powerful enough to assault both Erebor and Gondor at the same time. To summarise the 'evil' wizard is not evil; rather they pursue a just goal of preserving as many lives as possible, when their sacrifice would be in vain, even if it means bowing to the enemy.
Edit names as you will; the only point I will not budge on is that I think Dorwinion should have slightly more female heroes, to increase its uniqueness, hence why the ruler of the Court side is an Empress. I feel Lenwe as a hero is inappropriate as he stopped then journey just west of the Misty Mountains in the sight of them; hence he probably joined Lothlorien or Mirkwood. Daeron could be the herald; I do however think it would be a nice touch to have Tauriel as a permanent hero in this fraction in the Avari stronghold. On the point of unit names, as we are dealing with a region of the world that has less information than Rhun, (I think evem the Ice men of Lossarnac have more info about them than Dorwinion) I think we do have to make compromises if we wish to craft them into an unique fraction, however as the one thing we know about them is that they produce wine it leads me to believe they are implied to be inspired from Ancient Greece, if they have an inspiration at all.
If you do have alternative names, please suggest them, I felt the names I picked, bar heroes and Templars (To which I've suggested the alternative name of Vinyard Guard), (Paladin is okay as the definition is "a knight renowned for heroism and chivalry."; they do not need to be 'holy') I feel the names strike a balance between lore and gameplay as there is no point calling something an obscure world in sindarin as you can't recognise it at first glance which is bad for multiplayer. One word about cannoicalness; I feel we need to take it into lesser acount when dealing with areas such as Rhun, Agmar and Dorwinion due to the lack of information available; for instance if Angamr was completely 'cannon' we would not have the wonderful Angmar fraction we do.
Once again if you have better names, spit them out and we can debate about them.
dkbluewizard:
LordofLinks.
I think your proposal is still perfect, and like you I do subscribe to Tolkien's work as well. In regards to which wizard supports who, I remember that Romestamo means (East-helper) that could mean Pallando is the bad wizard and not Alatar. Pallando could be the wizard for the cult of shadow, would make sense since he wields a scimitar in 3.81 more of an eastern weapon.
After much thought and research however, I see why you chose Alatar as the bad wizard and I agree. So don't count what I just wrote above. Pallando, is of Namo's people so obviously he would see the future and folly of serving the dark lord. He would then further taint himself during the dominion of men hence he could not return to Valinor either. Perhaps he would then try to become a mighty king himself in the 4th age since he foresaw this as the dominion of weak men.
I agree that they failed and started "cults" that which you have demonstrated perfectly. I will get totally 100% behind your idea if we decide to put Pallando with the Cult of the Shadow. I think that is the best compromise, it shows how the blue wizards failed and started cults, and it also goes with Tolkien Gateway to how they drew forces off from the east.
I also agree that they came in TA 1000 with the other istari and not in the Second Age. That seems stupid. Why tolkien thought about them arriving then is really weird.
On the subject of Lenwe, he did not go west. He saw the MM and went South of the Anduin river. He then turned back. If you follow South of the Anduin and where he turned back, that about puts him next to the Rhun Forest & canoncially next to Dorwinion.
The elves that went to Mirkwood were remnants of the Green Elves that Denethor had left over from Beleriand during the First Age. So Lenwe wouldn't be right there. It would make sense as Denethor eventually died. It never says Lenwe died (he's an immortal elf). So to say that he is at Dorwinion is not that far fetched at all and I think this is okay.
Now I will throw out heroic names and you can decide where they go.
The Court:
Pallando (Since he is of Namo's people, I could see him here, especially if Daeron and Lenwe are included).
Tauriel (Herald of the Elves)
Daeron (Paladin of the Court/Unit Supporter) fits perfectly for him.
Lenwe (Hero Killer)
Insert Female Name here* (The Empress)
The Cult of Shadow:
Alatar (Mass Slayer, but I think he should have some hero killer aspect, he is the Chief of Orome's people...Lords of the Hunt).
Bladorthin II (Perhaps he is the rebel son of the Empress)
Onya (Druid Leader perhaps)
(not too good with female names, though I can give you a list at this link here: http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/names.pdf )
For the rest of the heroes just use canonical names from the list above.
I think that link will solve all our issues. This is perfect and I think it is ready to be implemented (if Edain cares that is ;) ).
lordoflinks:
Your ideas sound wonderful, with two exceptions. Firstly I loved the stroke of genius of making one of the paladins an elf, such a move suggests the court side is more open to other races; while the cult is more xenophobic as it is solely compiled of human heroes. About the Blue Wizards; to tell the truth I just picked them at random so any fitting by names is by pure chance, I really don't mind which wizard goes with which side. I shall leave it up to you as you obviously know more about names than me. Before I address my problems I wish to throw an idea at you.
What would you think of making it so that the units from the academies differed depending on which side one favoured; by this I do not mean completely different units as with the dwarfs; rather court units are less numerous but more powerful, with a single ability and the ability to gain experience up to lvl 10 (The last idea may not work). This is to represent both the aid of the elves in training and crafting even basic armour and weapons, but also to hint the court's armies is made up of both elves and humans and as such can learn more; the cult units would be more numerous and less powerful and lacking the special bonus the court gets as their recruits are drawn from peasants and they lack the aid of the elves, but would be vastly cheaper and take less time to produce. To summarise the Court is quality and the Cult is quantity.
Now I shall tackle the problems I had with your ideas:
1. Whichever wizard would end up on the Cult side should be a hero killer with mass slayer elements, as I feel this counters the Court well as that wizard can massacre through their limited troops. The Court wizard is a mass slayer with hero killer elements to counter the Cult's endless tide of militia.
2. Tauriel should be recruited at the enclave. The role of the Herald is that they are an early game mounted scout that can also summon powerful early game mounted eleven troops that cannot upgrade or level up, the troops are purely to allow the Court some breathing room, as such it would be inappropriate for any bar an avari elf to occupy the role. The Herald also represents the first hand of friendship from the elves towards the court and allows the elves' presence to be felt even without an outpost. Tauriel symbolises that Dorwinion is not alone in their fight, and other nations do care about them, in addition she is a ranged hero that the Court lacks.
Some thematic concerns occurred to me. First I think the court side should be implied to have developed a matriarchal ruling system rather than one based on males, this highlights just how alien Dorwinion is due to its distance from other 'good' nations, hence the prince's betrayal is especially shocking and carries the implication he wishes to rule in spite of tradition. This could manifest in game by units (Especially court units) having several different voices when you select them; for example a court hoplite could have its select lines spoken by a female and male human, and a female and male elf.
My final topic is heroes. While your ideas are very good, we need more heroes. I am wondering if there was someway we could ask the whole english community to brainstorm heroes, perhaps as a subsection in the RPG forum, with the aim of creating a roster for the Court of a mixed male/female, and elf/human and the Cult of a traditional ratio and humans only (The reasoning being that the Cult's heroes are from rural areas where traditional values still persist, and they are xenophobic towards elves in an attempt to please Rhun). Perhaps this could continue into a full blown RPG (I don't know how to run or set one up :( )
I think our final aim should be to have a finished proposal (PDF or perhaps ask the Wiki is we could create a 'dummy' page using their fraction layout) with each concept (Unit, building, spell or hero) having a image to draw inspiration from, a description, abilities and a lore justification if needed.
Also, thanks for the link and sorry for my late reply.
Melkor Bauglir:
To be honest, I didn't really read most of this thread, but since this won't attack any of my following points, it doesn't matter for this. Well, I think, Dorwinion sounds like a horrible idea. ;)
First of all, we know nothing about it, apart from speculations and to build an entire faction on the basis of fan-fiction, must be my top worst idea of the day. Dorwinion is one of those realms which are nice for the sake of completeness of a world, but simply aren't explained well enough. Which brings me to number 2:
Dorwinion is / was ENTIRELY noninvested in every war, Edain is built around. Since we know a lot of things about the Easterlings or Haradrim and since they participated a lot in numerous wars (and since Mordor doesn't necessarily need them...), they are an excellent idea. I could litereally vote for "Hobbits and Unicorns", claim that I only voted for the Unicorns and still "support" an idea that is just as relevant for any event in the WotR. I mean seriously: Forodwaith? [uglybunti]
Thirdly, from no point of view at all, Tolkien was really interested in creating a relatable / realistic world with morally grey people -he reinvented the Devil, what do you expect? His entire philosophy requires good and evil to be seperate entities with empty intersection (perhaps with the exception that good things can partly be corrupted), thus a neutral faction is completely not in line with any canon. And yes, I'm the same guy who just pointed out, that he thinks, "canonizing" destroys more then it helps. However, this argument doesn't really hold here, since a) there is a more elegant way and b) giving the player the choice between "Vineyard Court" and "Cult of the Shadow" sounds like giving Mordor the opportunity to become the savior of ME. The name alone is enough for me to not take this faction serious, also I feel reminded on Warhammer stuff, which is definitely a bad sign in this context. :D
I know myself, that I phrased this more extreme than necessary, but in a way I guess this is my honest opinion.
Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
PS: Voted for "Hobbits and Unicorns"!
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