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Autor Thema: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero  (Gelesen 1940 mal)

sr_dark

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Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« am: 15. Dez 2016, 15:57 »
After many many hours of playing, I've noticed that most factions (if not all), have a signature and distingable mass slayer, such as Saruman with his aoe melee attack, his wizard blast and fire ball, Gimli and his iconic jump, Boromir being a tank and also having Aoe melee attack plus Gandalf and his abilities for Gondor, Witchking and his masse and so on....

The think is that when playing with Imladris, I could not see anybody with such a signature role as in the other factions. I thought that just maaaybe it could be Elrond because he has Vilya, but it with the little damage it does, it works more like a kind of stunner than mass slaying, besides of the fact that it's a level 10 so it takes days to recharge; so would be like saying that Gloin is Erebor's mass slayer because of his level 10 earth-smash that pulls back enemies and does a bit of damage.

On the other hand I thought that Glorfindel could be it? Because of when you release his starlight ability? Either way it's all too insignificant for what (taking the rest of the mass slayers as example) a proper mass slayer is.

Which is why I propose making one of the Imladris' heroes a massive slayer since they have none (by either abilities or aoe+splash attack) or if they have one it's extremely hard to tell who it is, either way it's not good. My main bet is on making Glorfindel a tank/mass slayer like boromir (giving him aoe+splash attack)+ giving him mass slayer abilities like making the ''release starligt'' ability much more powerful and with an area of effect (and damage) similar to Gimli's jump. Which I think it's proper for this Elven Lord given the legend he is.



I remember DieWalküre agreeing with the idea of the main premise but he/she thought it was better to put Elrond on that role. I do not agree because I think he is more of a support hero, despite of his level 10 that really helps more to stun  or run than to mass-slay as I said, and even if the damage on it was to be improved, the ability is still a level 10 which means it takes centuries to recharge.

Feel free to debate more on this!  :)
« Letzte Änderung: 15. Dez 2016, 16:07 von sr_dark »

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #1 am: 15. Dez 2016, 18:19 »
Keep in mind that Imla has the unique Blade Masters. Furthermore Imla has Blades of Eregion, which allows your units to hit faster. Also your Imla archers have Golden Eregion Arrows, which increase the attack of allied units near the point of impact. On top you have Lore-Masters which deal little AoE damage. Also dont forget the horses of Elrond (if to weak suggest to buff..). So you see, Imladris does not really need a mass slayer compared to other factions.
Though i agree that Glorfindel's abilities could be buffed a bit, to push him more into the role of mass-slayer (if needed). Otherwise i would suggest to change the price with the Twins.

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #2 am: 15. Dez 2016, 20:28 »
If you think Boromir qualifies as a mass slayer, I'd suggest you take a closer look at Elrond.

sr_dark

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #3 am: 16. Dez 2016, 18:40 »
Yeah but all of those upgrades are to compensate for their little numbers, it has absolutely nothing to do with heroes and regarding lore masters, it takes them years to kill one battalion compared to a real mass slayer hero; not comparable.
Besides, if horse stances were to be the same as being a mass slayer(by its own), Mordor would have like 10 mass slayers, besides Nazgul's fell beasts and therefore Witchking wouldnt be necessary as a mass slayer? Weird logic to me



Boromir is a mass slayer in therms that he does splash AOE damage, Elrond when he gets his armor can kill damage 2 enemies at the time, true, but that would be like saying that Thranduil is a mass slayer also. And regarding Vilya I already explained the issues...

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #4 am: 17. Dez 2016, 19:27 »
Boromir doesn't even do aoe damage, while Elrond literally starts with an aoe ability that improves as he levels up.

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #5 am: 18. Dez 2016, 15:31 »
Elrond is meant to be Rivendell's AoE hero, and with three abilities to that effect (flood horses, his passive AoE damage later and Vilya) I'd say hes conceptually well positioned for the role. Of course, if his abilities are too weak they can be easily buffed, but I don't think more fundamental hero reworks are necessary here.
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sr_dark

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #6 am: 3. Jan 2017, 17:48 »
Okay so I've been testing Elrond a lot since I read what you said Lord of Mordor and what you say is true, he is conceptually well positioned, what makes it hard to tell I noticed is that his flood horses for example can't be set to autocast so you have to constantly pay attention to it, but overall, the main issue regarding his role vs ability is definitely Vilya.
I already explained that what I consider the problem with it is that it does almost no damage and its more of a stun to run or disrupt, but that was without taking into account that he is a mass slayer.

Now considering the later, as he is a mass slayer, his level 10 really really needs to be buffed, comparing it to some of the lvl 10 mass slayer abilities like Gandalf's word of power, Saruman's Thunder, Zaphragor's Raging Anger; it is more than safe to say that Vilya , severely pales in comparison to the damage they can do to units, and should be buffed to their level

Slawek56703

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #7 am: 17. Jan 2017, 09:33 »
Okay so I've been testing Elrond a lot since I read what you said Lord of Mordor and what you say is true, he is conceptually well positioned, what makes it hard to tell I noticed is that his flood horses for example can't be set to autocast so you have to constantly pay attention to it, but overall, the main issue regarding his role vs ability is definitely Vilya.
I already explained that what I consider the problem with it is that it does almost no damage and its more of a stun to run or disrupt, but that was without taking into account that he is a mass slayer.

Now considering the later, as he is a mass slayer, his level 10 really really needs to be buffed, comparing it to some of the lvl 10 mass slayer abilities like Gandalf's word of power, Saruman's Thunder, Zaphragor's Raging Anger; it is more than safe to say that Vilya , severely pales in comparison to the damage they can do to units, and should be buffed to their level

I agree with flood horse ability auto cast seems nice addition to thier usage and Vilya need some additional effect or just simply increased damage to show Elrond Mass Slayer role better also this is after all level 10 ability  ;) some buff is really needed but with this Vilya to Word of Power or Zaphragor Raging Anger comparision is a little to much. In addition to what i said i would increase a little duration of this ability and Elrond imo should get 1% with each level up increased damage by his spell and time reduction to cast the them . Let's not ignore Elrond bloodline.

Btw. Galadriel,WitchKing's,Sauron,Zaphragor,Gulzar and heroes who simply have the most magic abilities should get this some level up bonues like wizard's if they didn't already

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #8 am: 17. Jan 2017, 11:37 »
I'm in favour of strengthening Vilya a bit. It's Elrond's ultimate ability, after all, and we're also talking about the mightiest of the Three Rings. Therefore, if there are some chances, I agree with giving that feature a boost whatsoever.

Garlodur

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #9 am: 19. Jan 2017, 12:54 »
Although I agree with increasing the effective use of Vilya as a level 10 ability, it must be noted that ot should never come close to the tornado Elrond can summon in vanilla BfME2 and RotWK. I think that the team paid close attention to making this ability not too strong because it is an extreme representation of magic in Tolkien's universe.

I am not sure how the ability can be strengthened besides a damage buff. It seems to be an easy solution but Rivendell has some 'mass-slayer' units too, who alongside Elrond should deal massive damage to entire orc armies. Imladris, I want to point out, has many options to deal with large clusters of enemies, whereas Gondor/Arnor has few, and Angmar has a couple more. Hence Elrond's weaker position compared to Gandalf, and only half of the times to Zaphragor since he loses ability damage at lower health.

Some suggestions for increasing Vilya's effectiveness: straight damage increase, increased effect range, additional meta-effects (like stun or higher knockback), increasing Elrond's armour against ranged attacks, or reducing the cooldown timer.

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #10 am: 19. Jan 2017, 18:59 »
Although I agree with increasing the effective use of Vilya as a level 10 ability, it must be noted that ot should never come close to the tornado Elrond can summon in vanilla BfME2 and RotWK. I think that the team paid close attention to making this ability not too strong because it is an extreme representation of magic in Tolkien's universe.

Of course, that small-scale tornado was something just out-of-character for Elrond, alongside focusing too much on destructive properties (which are not really what his concept ought to be centred on). The current (new, if we consider past versions) implementation is a compromise that succeeds, as I do believe, in making Elrond use Vilya for defensive purposes (whether it be him or his troops doesn't matter) and in granting him an effective feature to be reckoned with.

The boost would only stress the fact that we're dealing with one of the Three Rings (the mightiest) and with the ultimate ability of the leader of the faction. Vilya will nonetheless respect the customary lore-related interpretation that wants the Three Rings to be used only as supportive means, as Nenya does and as Narya, hopefully, will do equally  :)

Slawek56703

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #11 am: 20. Jan 2017, 00:16 »
Zitat
Some suggestions for increasing Vilya's effectiveness: straight damage increase, increased effect range, additional meta-effects (like stun or higher knockback), increasing Elrond's armour against ranged attacks, or reducing the cooldown timer.

Interesting ... when Elrond uses Vilya allies in the "Ring get's armor boost against ranged attacks. This will help with Imladris troops being weak to arrows if used in right moment but the range of they Vilya Ring effect or time of this spell would need to be increased with this damage maked by Vilya would stay and as DieWalküre said it will be more for supportive means than "pure damage dealer"  i like it :)

sr_dark

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #12 am: 11. Feb 2017, 21:47 »
Well looks like we all agree that Vilya needs a buff in strength at least, ofc that not as former Elrond's tornado, I actually like his new animation concept much more.

However, I've been trying out Elrond more lately and I realised that although  it is a very nice addition that he gets more horses as he levels up, I realized that contrary to what I thought, the AOE disadvantage he gets with this mechanism until he gets to level 10 was balanced with each individual powerful horse(as in lvl 10). Sadly this is not the case and in early levels his flood ability does way too little damage for the small AOE he has, compared to similar abilities (in concept) as ''wizard's blast'' or Zaphragor's lvl 1 ''Devastation ''; therefore I believe it should be compensated with powerful horses, since right now he even has trouble to finish regular orc's health bar, before getting to level 10

Try it yourself, and this is even with Legendary Heroes on (dont know how much is the difference with the other game modes tbh but I know there is one)

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #13 am: 13. Mär 2017, 20:11 »
I do not understand what have Elrond and his Ring of Air do with Water Spell Horse Flood. In the books is written that Master Elrond causes the flood by spelling some words toward river but the horse visage did Gandalf. Now I am totally confused.
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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #14 am: 13. Mär 2017, 21:32 »
Wait Elronds lvl 10 does damage and not just throws them into the air?

No seriously Elronds lvl 10 needs a little damage increase.

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Re: Imladris' lack of proper Mass slayer hero
« Antwort #15 am: 13. Mär 2017, 22:50 »
In the books is written that Master Elrond causes the flood by spelling some words toward river but the horse visage did Gandalf. Now I am totally confused.

It's true, I recall the same thing. You have to look at the whole picture though: is that aspect worth being represented in the game? I find it a too minimal of a difference, and a very strict adherence to the books. If you think about it, the whole water-horse motive is very much connected with Rivendell, in a conceptual perspective. This is particularly true in the cinematographic transposition, as Arwen escaped the Nazgûl in the legendary sequence we all have knowledge of. The ability is also an iconic remnant from BFME2.

You just have to order all these pieces together and the reason for the current feature to remain will be quite apparent, I guess. Not a solution which is totally lore-accurate, but it is nonetheless what satisfies the needs of gameplay.