[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Gondor Suggestions
A canonical Gandalf
dkbluewizard:
Okay I made an option available and no one seemed to comment on it. Having Narya/Glamdring as a power on the left hand side like Sauron's power that he starts off with would solve all issues.
I am really tired of hearing people say that Gandalf's role will change, does Aragorn as King Elessar's role change when he becomes king and gives a leadership bonus to nearby troops? No, because this is canonical and it is what he would do. Does Galadriel's new system proposed change her role as a building destroyer, the answer is yes.
So I could go on about this but why should other characters get "special" treatment like what is mentioned above, but not Gandalf? Who had all these canonically anyways. I feel to NOT implement this with Gandalf is uncanonical--if Aragorn, Galadriel, Glorfindel, etc. have other aspects that they semi contribute, then I don't see why Gandalf having Narya and a bonus from Glamdring would be overpowering, next to many other heroes--it wouldn't. Any character with a flying mount could still best Gandalf, and Sauron himself could still beat him, so what is the issue with Narya and Glamdring?
Implement the combined system of Garlodur with the power I suggested in the left corner for Arnor (call it the Wisest of the Maia) and implement Glamdring's bonus with Narya's ability with Gondor (call it Gandalf the Grey). Simply put, done. This is the best option, don't have to worry about the stance system, don't have to worry about power changes, and everything is canoncial and goes with the books and balance system.
Hamanathnath:
--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 4. Jan 2017, 05:08 ---Okay I made an option available and no one seemed to comment on it. Having Narya/Glamdring as a power on the left hand side like Sauron's power that he starts off with would solve all issues.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I don't think it really makes sense for Gandalf to have his own starting power like Sauron has. There are 2 reasons for Sauron having the power explain how he levels up.
1. Because without it, you would have no idea how to level up Sauron (a simple, but important reason :P)
2. But more importantly, Sauron is without any doubt the most important aspect of Mordor's gameplay. Sauron is the leader of Mordor, and the entire balance of the faction revolves around him. Without him, you can't level up any of the Nazgul or the Mouth of Sauron, you can't get certain units such as Black Uruk Archers and Troll Catapults, and you can't get any unit upgrades outside of banner carriers.
Gandalf, on the other hand, as you know, is not the leader of Gondor/Arnor, nor does he function as the center figure of the factions. So I don't really think it makes sense for Gondor or Arnor to have a power that they start with that involves Gandalf.
Also, I'm not entirely sure what the exact point is of giving Gandalf a 50% damage boost in the first place is. He already has incredibly high melee damage (I recall it being 440 melee damage at level 1, which is higher then pretty much any hero in the mod that isn't a hero killer).
I can get behind implementing Narya because it does not require faction specific powers (as Gandalf has Narya in both his Gondor and Arnor incarnations) and using the stance swap mechanic, Narya can be implemented in interesting ways. But giving Gandalf a damage boost just to signify Glamdring feels unneeded, uninteresting, and unbalanced to me.
Slawek56703:
I have another little idea of Narya attainted to his stance . If Gandalf spells become much stronger in next version i came up with simle idea . Last chance xD
Gandalf Grey
Normal Stance Narya provide 50% armor to fire and magic damage to units,heroes and machines on the whloe map (Gandalf use all animation of his attacks with sword and staff)
Agressive Stance Gandalf abilities deal 25% more damage but recharge 25% longer (Gandalf use only Sword animation attack Lightning sword additionaly have aoe attack essence of Lighting attack stay for 30 seconds for Gandlaf making his sword shining and deal additional 25% more damage )
Defensiver Stance Gandalf abilities deal 25% lower damage but recharge 25% faster( Gandalf use only his staff) lower damage by 25% Narya provide 100% armor to fire and magic damage)
Gandalf White
Normal Stance This some as Grey and provide additional fear resistance when units are near Gandalf
Agressive Stance Gandalf abilities deal 25% more damage but recharge 25% longer (Gandalf use only Sword animation attack Lightning sword additionaly have aoe attack essence of Lighting attack stay for 45 seconds for Gandlaf making his sword shining and deal additional 25% more damage Narya additionally cancels enemy leadership near Gandlaf
Defensiver Stance Gandalf abilities deal 25% lower damage but recharge 25% faster( Gandalf use only his staff) lower damage by 25% Narya provide 100% armor to fire and magic damage Gandalf Bubble shield is recovered 25% faster and gives 25% more armor
Gandalf Corrupted
I have quite problem with effect becouse it is additonal effect of the One Ring and Gandalf by defualt makes units weaker .
okey i try ...
With essence of the one ring Gandalf Corrupt enemy units
Normal Stance Narya provide 50% weaker armor to fire and magic damage to enemy units,heroes and machines on the whloe map (Gandalf use all animation of his attacks with sword and staff) Gandalf have Bubble Shild but recolored to red damaging enemy units and burning them
Agressive Stance Gandalf abilities deal 25% more damage (Gandalf use only Sword animation attack Lightning sword additionaly have aoe attack essence of Lighting attack stay for 30 seconds for Gandlaf making his sword flaming and deal additional 25% more fire damage )
Gandalf Bubble Shild deal 25% higher damage
Defensive Stance Gandalf abilities recharge 25% faster( Gandalf use only his staff) Narya provide 100% more vulnurable armor to fire and magic damage). Gandalf Bubble Shild deal 25% lower damage
Gandalf Challenge Master
Normal Stance additonaly provide heal on whole map. Bubble Shield enhance not only Gandalf but all allies near him .Enemies are paralzyed for 5 seconds
Agressive Stance Gandalf abilities deal 25% more damage (Gandalf use only Sword animation attack Lightning sword additionaly have aoe attack essence of Lighting attack stay for 90 seconds for Gandlaf making his sword shining and deal additional 50% more damage Narya additionally cancels enemy leadership on the whole map.Bubble Shield enhance not only Gandalf but all allies near him .Enemies are paralzyed for 10 seconds
Defensiver Stance Gandalf abilities recharge 25% faster( Gandalf use only staff) Narya provide 100% armor to fire and magic damage Gandalf Bubble shield is recovered 50% faster and gives 50% more armor to allies but dont paralyze enmies
Walküre:
--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 4. Jan 2017, 05:08 ---I am really tired of hearing people say that Gandalf's role will change, does Aragorn as King Elessar's role change when he becomes king and gives a leadership bonus to nearby troops? No, because this is canonical and it is what he would do. Does Galadriel's new system proposed change her role as a building destroyer, the answer is yes.
--- Ende Zitat ---
No, it doesn't. I exactly crafted the proposal not to alter her major supporting role and her characterisation of a building destroyer. The feature in fact has a highly temporary essence and, once its limited effect is over, Galadriel returns immediately to her usual conceptual design (without any permanent change).
We're not doing any favouritism of any sort to any hero. We're just considering each specific case and then trying to come up with the most reasonable solution. As I wrote at the very beginning of this debate, Gandalf's concept is extremely tough to deal with, as there are so many boundaries to take into account (I listed them multiple times). Therefore, as Haman pointed out, Sauron's or Galadriel's situation can't objectively be applicable to this context, where we are in front of a solitary mass-slayer who is not supposed to be the leader of the faction (albeit being the faction's mightiest force to reckon with). Add to this all the iconic references from the first chapter of this game series which he embodies.
Said that, a three-part stance system complies well with the need to return Narya to its legitimate owner, to focus more on Gandalf's magical powers and, most importantly, not to disrupt his concept or the faction's structure. That's why I deem the proposal both enough simple and viable at the same time. A good deal more viable than modifying the spellbook structure of the faction by adding or replacing spells. Especially now, I would say, that spells are undergoing a major overhaul for the next patch; but, since this is something still in the developing phase, we're neither allowed to reveal it nor am I intended to deal with the topic in this thread. Concerning Glamdring, as I previously told you, I respect your views and perfectly understand why you wish the sword were to be given more prominence, but, given the very confined range of action that we're obliged to operate into, I decided to follow the most simplistic way: not doing anything at all. Lightning Sword already well represents the royal sword's might (in conjunction with Gandalf's Magic) and so, by leaving everything untouched, there won't be issues related to new features or to the Arnor/Gondor duality aspect.
Slawek, thank you for sharing your ideas. I would nonetheless stick to the main concept Haman and I proposed. In my opinion, changing animations and granting him a ranged attack are something that makes the system more complex. And more complicated concepts had better be avoided while having to deal with the Grey Wizard, for the known reasons.
dkbluewizard:
Well I offered a solution that fits and could please everyone, I really don't see how a damage boost changes Gandalf's character significantly since he doesn't have aoe melee attacks, can't affect air units, and still wouldn't come close to beating Sauron. Maybe he would then be able to beat Morgul Witch King and Dol Gulder Khamul, but book wise he should, and really all they would have to do is mount their fellbeasts and Gandalf is destroyed. Don't get me started with Smaug owning him.
So as far as balance goes, it is still balanced. Hamanathnath, uninteresting and unneeded is your main issue, but I say that it is canonical and would still be balanced. As I demonstrated above.
But okay Diewalkure and Haman lets say that I actually agree with you, based on what YOU have presented Diewalkure, I will do the same:
Besides the Narya power, what if we gave Gandalf the +50% damage boost only when he is facing a powerful opponent like if the Balrog strikes him, a troll, or other powerful character? Basically this would function and activate along with his magical shield (this could be a passive ability that goes along with his Lightning Sword).
1. It would not change his function as a mass slayer.
2. It implements the canon of Glamdring to his character like you did with Galadriel albeit it the same time structure and cool down.
3. Gandalf did this against the Balrog in the books (only time his sword glowed white)
4. If you see complications with Arnor, just don't have him activate this ability or say that he can but it is more a magical melee enhancement instead of the blade doing the work (but personally I feel he shouldn't get it with Arnor).
5. Lastly, this works like the Galadriel function and it would since Gandalf already has an ability similar when his shield surrounds him.
Let us just be honest, I have presented canonical balances to the character and presented something that would go great in addition to not changing his character, this would work. I don't remember ever a time someone called Gandalf the Godly.
So this is my proposal, we can implement Narya via the way we have talked about and this ability would go along with his magic bubble shield. I think it would be okay. Especially since it doesn't "change his role."
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