[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions

An alternative for Thorin's Company's regal armors

<< < (3/5) > >>

Bombur:
Well, Dáin is already shared, and furthermore as the main hero of the permanent roster, by Erebor and the Iron Hills, though, and so is Thorin III. Same for the Witch-king with Angmar and Mordor.
I think my proposal is justified lore-wise and proposes a more different incarnation of the Company than the two Dáin are differents. Plus they would only be temporary. I also would like to point out the fact that Blue Mountains and Iron Hills are sub-factions of the same faction (unlike Angmar and Mordor), thus diminishing the "shock factor". And finally, Rohan can summon Haldir, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Treebeard, which all primarily belong to entirely different, and even racially different factions, and Aragorn being one of the two main heroes of Gondor. Gondor which can himself summon a very large and iconic part of the Rohan Roster : Théoden, Éomer, Éowyn. They can also summon Elladan and Elrohir from Imladris. And I could even mention Arnor and Círdan, nay the Fellowship ringhero, which shares the hero battalion characteristic with my proposal.
Now, I will say that all of these summons are perfectly justified by them being iconic reinforcements at a moment or another in the books or the movies (I would even say it's not so evident in the case of the Ents, as they don't really came to help Rohan and went more on a solo action) ... which is exactly the case of Thorin's Company and the Iron Hills!

So, really, I don't see the problem here.

Walküre:
Dáin is shared by the Iron Hills and Erebor, but he has two completely different characterisations due to each faction's respective timeline: as a military warlord in the former and as an old king in the latter. A similar situation to the Witch-king's role in Angmar and his connotation as Sauron's deadliest servant in Mordor, during the War of the Ring. Gandalf's unique characteristics in the Dwarven spellbook are symbolised by his radically different abilities, which more or less grant him another characterisation too.

Yes, some factions can make usage of heroes who belong to other contexts, even if most of the examples are quite defined situations and tied to certain boundaries. Namely, we're not talking about many heroes at the same time (it doesn't matter if they're implemented as a single battalion) or major heroes with their whole potential at your disposal; Aragorn, just to name one, is indeed a fundamental character of Gondor, but his conceptual design is so broad as a regular hero in the very Gondor (four different typologies of characterisation that deal with all three films equally) that his implementation in Rohan ends up thus being very confined in itself. Furthermore, spells as Rohan Answers are well justified by their iconic legacy that relates to the beginning of the BFME series and by the important fact that they're ultimate spells (which is not the case of this proposal). In order to be even clearer, a concrete reference might be of better usage: would you be in favour to replace the current summoning of the Grey Pilgrim (in regards of the Blue Mountains) and to have Dáin with his host temporarily available in place of that spell? I wouldn't. That would mean, in my own opinion, to share a fundamental character with another faction (via a solution which is not an ultimate spell, as the situation would instead require). As I pointed out in my previous comment, we are talking about the whole Dwarven Company. The element which the faction is completely centred on.

Another possible argument could be the very hero-battalion system at the root of your proposal. I deem it a very unique feature and I personally believe it should involve the Fellowship of the Ring only, due to its strong relationship with the significant theme of unity. I'm not saying that the Dwarven Company is not united within itself, but the Fellowship of the Ring could be regarded as the real epitome of unity; that's why the feature that permits to use such heroes as a battalion ought to remain exclusive for Rivendell's Ring system. Moreover, even if the three Dwarven factions do technically represent three subfactions, I think one had better consider them as three truly distinct factions. That is, each of them satisfies its own needs (balance, differentiation and so on) and they are respectfully endowed with their proper gameplay style; henceforth, I would say that comparisons with common subfactions as Mirkwood or Dol Guldur wouldn't be so much proper.

Bombur:
I really don't see any difference with the summons of the Three Hunters (which is not an ultimate spell) or Rohan answers. The situation is exactly the same for me. Iconic reinforcements for a very specific and iconic situation in the books / movies. And with a characterisation even more different than Dáin's. I will also say that Rohan Answers summons not only several iconic heroes, but also a whole army, which justifies their position as an ultimate spell (same for your exemple of Dáin's host, btw).
And as I said, there are more exemples of less justified reinforcements already included in the mod (Treebeard, etc.).

Regarding the unicity of the hero battalion, I would more willingly point out the similarities between the Company and the Fellowship: they are both the group which undertakes an adventure with the Hobbit hero of their respective cycles: The Hobbit, for Bilbo, and The Lord of the Rings, for Frodo, that to say the two most iconic books of Tolkien (and Gandalf is a member of both, but I don't include him in my spell proposition because he's no more with them at the time).
Of course, the Fellowship is more important, for a more important book and a more important adventure, and it's then normal to feel them as the epitome you see, but, really, the parallel seems evident to me.
Thereby, I feel that those two groups only sharing the hero battalion fonction would be a great way to represent this parallel in the mod. And the superior importance of the Fellowhip is already represented by them being a permanent hero and a ringhero.

EDIT: I forgot there are a third iconic group which can qualify for the hero battalion system: the Nazgûl (as the evil equivalent of the Fellowship)... which are already implemented as a hero battalion in the mod! Well, the Witch-King, Khamûl and two others are separated as single heroes but still, there's actually already two (justified) hero battalions in the mod.

Walküre:
I'm not at all questioning the propriety of your proposal under a lore-based perspective, nor am I opposed to the strategic value of summoning reinforcements on the battlefield. The point is that such spell would bring the heart of the Blue Mountains into another faction, even if the feature is to be temporary. The other examples of summoning spells either deal with 'minor' heroes or, in case of major characters, have those mighty leaders confined within strict boundaries (the limited role of Aragorn in Rohan and the diverse abilities of Gandalf in the Dwarven spellbook). Coming to the exceptional case, Rohan Answers may well defy that uniqueness-related logic, because we're in front of an ultimate powerful spell; this aspect thus justifies the presence of such heroes and troops. Contrary to the mentioned situations, your proposal would not be an ultimate spell and would indeed implement in another faction the most important heroes of the Blue Mountains. Following in the footsteps of the reasoning I previously made: imagine having Sauron or Galadriel be momentarily available respectively in Isengard or Rivendell. I would be totally against such eventuality for the exposed reasons.

I personally liked those armours in BOTFA, yet, if they can't see light in the game, I don't agree with the idea of 'forcing' them in the Edain Mod via the suggested summoning of the Dwarven Company. Just to refer to the topic of the precedent posts, as many elements as possible from the Hobbit trilogy found a way in the game, but the proposition of including every single concept is unfortunately unreasonable (and not feasible too). As some other factions had to sacrifice something in regards of Hobbit-based material, the lack of that royal armoury doesn't seem to me a so unbearable of a flaw; bearing also in mind that Thorin's current royal armour is already a strong reference to those cinematographic concepts, although not all the armours have been implemented. It was due to the Community's strong desire for those armours, if I remember correctly, that the Edain Team eventually changed their mind about Thorin. Therefore, we could regard the present state of things as an already-satisfactory compromise. And behind a well-made compromise there is often a heated debate; a precious debate, undoubtedly, but heated too.


--- Zitat von: Bombur am 10. Feb 2017, 14:32 ---EDIT: I forgot there are a third iconic group which can qualify for the hero battalion system: the Nazgûl (as the evil equivalent of the Fellowship)... which are already implemented as a hero battalion in the mod! Well, the Witch-King, Khamûl and two others are separated as single heroes but still, there's actually already two (justified) hero battalions in the mod.

--- Ende Zitat ---

That means that we may presently dispose of an extremely iconic feature for the Fellowship of the Ring and of its evil counterpart for the Nazgûl, being each of the two an element of prime importance in the first cinematographic chapter of LOTR. This reinforces my resolution not to have a third replica of said feature in the game.

Bombur:

--- Zitat ---or, in case of major characters, have those mighty leaders confined within strict boundaries (the limited role of Aragorn in Rohan and the diverse abilities of Gandalf in the Dwarven spellbook).
--- Ende Zitat ---
But who said they should have the same abilities? Actually, this would even be impossible due to the lack of slots of the hero battalion. A different characterisation can totally be made!


--- Zitat ---Following in the footsteps of the reasoning I previously made: imagine having Sauron or Galadriel be momentarily available respectively in Isengard or Rivendell. I would be totally against such eventuality for the exposed reasons.
--- Ende Zitat ---
If it was pertinent due to a passage of the books or perhaps the movies, I wouldn't see it like a problem (as long as it's balanced). The fact is, it's not, and the comparison is therefore not a good one.


--- Zitat ---I personally liked those armours in BOTFA, yet, if they can't see light in the game, I don't agree with the idea of 'forcing' them in the Edain Mod via the suggested summoning of the Dwarven Company.
--- Ende Zitat ---
It's not "forcing" if it's justified. And for me, the situation is still exactly the same as the several exemples I have provided before.


--- Zitat ---bearing also in mind that Thorin's current royal armour is already a strong reference to those cinematographic concepts
--- Ende Zitat ---
Actually, I love this armor but I find its current implementation rather annoying because he doesn't match with his company anymore and because it removes Orcrist from the game. Which is why I proposed to remove this armor / weapon change should my proposition be accepted.


--- Zitat ---That means that we may presently dispose of an extremely iconic feature for the Fellowship of the Ring and of its evil counterpart for the Nazgûl, being each of the two an element of prime importance in the first cinematographic chapter of LOTR. This reinforces my resolution not to have a third replica of said feature in the game.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I also said how the Company also hasa very strong parallel to the Fellowship and then deserves to share this feature to represent this parallel.

Navigation

[0] Themen-Index

[#] Nächste Seite

[*] Vorherige Sete