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Autor Thema: Second economy building option  (Gelesen 510 mal)

Offline Secret Keeper

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Second economy building option
« am: 2. Apr 2017, 21:27 »
Hello community,

Gondor has only one type of economy building for settlements from all factions. From my perspective, I feel that second option would be beneficial. To benefit from farms (cavalry discount),  you need to train horses even though you don't want to or need them in your current game. Let the fact of having no other options and strategies stay in vanilla. Edain is more interesting than that.

On the other hand, you have a market place building, which is only raaaarely built (understand 1 out of 100 games). So here comes the idea:

Market place as a settlement economy building - I propose 2 possibilities. Either completely move market place to settlements only. Or allow us to build a smaller versions of market places on settlements. Of course they will function as a typical economy building. No need to discuss abilities and discount type right now.

So, what do you think? Do you feel that another economy building would be interesting? Market place is just my early idea of changing basically unused building to something worthy of new tactics without the need of graphical changes (considering edain team lack of time and people right now).

Offline Gandalf7000

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Re: Second economy building option
« Antwort #1 am: 3. Apr 2017, 17:32 »
If the first one would be accepted I also propose to allow Marketplace to generate resources maintaining the upgrades possibilites (grand harvest, ore, taxes).

Offline Halbarad

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Re: Second economy building option
« Antwort #2 am: 4. Apr 2017, 19:25 »
I think Gondor already has many different economic buildings and doesn't need any new benefits (I would say in this point Rohan needs some more ideas). Also a market outside in the wild.. I don't think that this is that logical. But if it's the wish I would say for example something like an iron mine that makes the same benefit as the iron forge in the fortress could be a good idea.
So 3 mines and 3 forges together do 30 percent benefit.
That could also bring houses more in foreground. What do you think about it?
Hope everything is clear for you because I am german and wrote that on my mobile-phone ^^ If not then just ask me about it ;)
the lannisters send their regards

Offline Secret Keeper

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Re: Second economy building option
« Antwort #3 am: 4. Apr 2017, 21:54 »
Well, ever faction has 2 different economy buildings for castles/outpost. But gondor is the only one having just farm for outside of castle. Yes, they have 3 different ones but I think this is actually an advantage for other factions. Imladris has 4 different and angmar has 5 different economy buildings and nobody has problem with that.

I don't think having another benefit is wrong idea. After all, it comes with disadvantage. You have to build only this specific building to get discount. So you cant build signal fires or ithilien camps etc.

Market place is just a wild idea because it's so underused.


Offline Halbarad

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Re: Second economy building option
« Antwort #4 am: 5. Apr 2017, 00:03 »
Gondor has 5 different buildings that give you benefits (4 economy), but 4 of them are inside the fortress and only one is outside the fortress. Yes Angmar has 5 buildings with benefits, but at the End of the game they are not as good as Gondors buildings.
The thing is, that you can combine the benefits from Gondor MUCH better then the benefits from Angmars buildings: You always use buildings, so stoneworkers is always a useful benefit.
If you then build riders, you can use the farms to get them for much less money then normal and you can upgrade them for less money then normal. Same thing with your Tower Guards.

Buy playing with Angmar, you can use many benefits but you can't combine them really good: Your melting pot doesn't help you that much if you go on barrow wights or your orcs or your hillmen, which are better because of the farms outside.
And your mills doesn't benefits them either.

The marketplace is rarely build - but only in short games, after you play a while it is very useful to get him and buy its upgrades. They are that strong that it was better for balance to make them very expensive - thats why you don't see them that often. But to get back to the question if Gondor needs more benefits:

Gondor buildings with benefit:
farms
forge
normal house
stoneworker
statues (next Version you can build more of them, because they can also be build at the towers position)

Rohan got 2 buildings with benefits, Isengart got 3. I don't think that Gondor is the next one in line that should get a new one. That would be a real advantage for Gondor.
the lannisters send their regards

Offline Secret Keeper

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Re: Second economy building option
« Antwort #5 am: 5. Apr 2017, 14:45 »
Hmm as far as I know, Stonework does not generate resources, yeah? ... I understand your concern about benefits from possible new economic buildings, but my initial idea is to give gondor second economy building for settlements. I don't like an idea of having just one option. "You want more money? here, you can build only farms and nothing else". For me it is boring a little.

However, i really dont understand whats the problem with new benefit. You can freely build 6 farms and 1 market place. What benefit you will get besides horses? nothing - because you built it just once.  But the game will look nicer, you will get the feeling of choice and you will be more entertained and maybe find some new strategy.   

 There is not an infinite number of settlements. When you choose to build market place, you lose horse benefit. It's not like you will end up with 6+ houses, 6+ forges, 6+ farms and 6+ market places and will be unstoppable, it is quite impossible. 

Offline Halbarad

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Re: Second economy building option
« Antwort #6 am: 5. Apr 2017, 16:36 »
Hmm as far as I know, Stonework does not generate resources, yeah? ...
I checked it out, yes you are right. I thought it would generate resources but it does not. My mistake, but fact is: Gondor can get more benefits then most other factions.

I understand your concern about benefits from possible new economic buildings, but my initial idea is to give gondor second economy building for settlements. I don't like an idea of having just one option.
That's why I would say that if we should give it a new settlement option, then with benefits we can also get in the fortress. An iron mine with benefits that you can combine with your forge or another new building with benefits you can combine with houses. The same way you build it with Isengart, only that we got outside a new building.

A new independent economy building would also need a new upgrade on the market place. I don't like the idea of having 4 different upgrades in the market place, only with different effects, but that's just my personal opinion.
Having the market place upgrades on a very cheep settlement would be too strong, because it's upgrades are much too strong for a building that only costs 200 ressources and we already have upgrades for soldiers in a normal economy building - not separate like the dwarfs or Angmar or Isengart. So in my opinion it would not be that balanced if we would give more upgrades to smaller economy buildings. And I would say that if someone who plays Gondor in lategame doesn't build the market place, its his own fault because its an investment that could really help you generate more ressources.

I don't think it would be that good to give Gondor a 4th settlement building, while every other faction (exception Angmar, but I already wrote about that one) only got three.
But lets see whats the meaning of the others.
the lannisters send their regards

Offline Secret Keeper

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Re: Second economy building option
« Antwort #7 am: 5. Apr 2017, 20:14 »
Thank you for a discussion. Yeah, let's see if something will resonate with other people.

Offline Garlodur

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Re: Second economy building option
« Antwort #8 am: 7. Apr 2017, 17:35 »
I personally do not see the need to introduce an extra building on Gondor settlements.
Halbarad has explained some of the reasons already.

Gondor has 5 different buildings that give you benefits (4 economy), but 4 of them are inside the fortress and only one is outside the fortress. Yes Angmar has 5 buildings with benefits, but at the End of the game they are not as good as Gondors buildings.
The thing is, that you can combine the benefits from Gondor MUCH better then the benefits from Angmars buildings: You always use buildings, so stoneworkers is always a useful benefit.
If you then build riders, you can use the farms to get them for much less money then normal and you can upgrade them for less money then normal. Same thing with your Tower Guards.

....

The marketplace is rarely build - but only in short games, after you play a while it is very useful to get him and buy its upgrades. They are that strong that it was better for balance to make them very expensive - thats why you don't see them that often. But to get back to the question if Gondor needs more benefits:

Gondor buildings with benefit:
farms
forge
normal house
stoneworker
statues (next Version you can build more of them, because they can also be build at the towers position)

Indeed the benefit goes much further than that if you look at the discounts they provide. Farms reduce cost of cavalry and their production can be increased through the Marketplace. Forge reduce cost of upgrades and idem. Town house reduce cost of Tower Guard, Guards of the Citadel and Dol Amroth Soldiers and idem. Stoneworker reduces cost of building construction even if you only build one. Heroic statues reduce hero cost, but as we will see in the next version, this might not prove much stronger. Ask the question and do the math: risking your base to not be fully protected by arrow towers just for a hero discount will turn out more expensive.

What I mean to say is that there are many ways to get discounts, but particularly the Heroic Statue influences your strategy: either cheap heroes and strengthening units, or defending an empty camp against an ongoing assault with Towers. This synergy is very nicely build in by ET.

Zitat
Rohan got 2 buildings with benefits, Isengart got 3. I don't think that Gondor is the next one in line that should get a new one. That would be a real advantage for Gondor.

We can also ask ourselves why we aren't complaining about Rohan's 'lack' of diverse resource buildings, of which one does not even give a discount on troops or upgrades. Isengard, on the other hand, also disposes of the Steelworks which give both the economy and standing upgraded armies a boost at once. A very ingenious option that reflects the thematic of Isengard's industry.

Here is my real point: Gondor lacks the thematic of a new economy building. I disagree with the idea of a Iron Mine because they were not really known for mining, not as much as the Dwarves at least. You could say many of the non-native resources they needed came through trade, which is where the Marketplace comes in.

Gondor has only one type of economy building for settlements from all factions. From my perspective, I feel that second option would be beneficial. To benefit from farms (cavalry discount),  you need to train horses even though you don't want to or need them in your current game. Let the fact of having no other options and strategies stay in vanilla. Edain is more interesting than that.

There are other strategies Gondor can play out with its settlements, if you are willing to risk it. Going all-in on Signal Fires gives you a large free army in online games if the opponent is not offensive enough. Besides, feeling obliged to spend money on cavalry because you build farms is not a reason: the benefit you would get of not spending money at all is greater indeed! Or, more to the point, Farms still produce resources and upgraded with a Marketplace I won't see you complaining if your settlements are filled with them and money is pouring in.

In short, I am not in favour of giving Gondor another Economic option, particularly on the settlements.