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Autor Thema: New Dark Lord power  (Gelesen 1307 mal)

AulëTheSmith

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New Dark Lord power
« am: 4. Apr 2017, 01:24 »
Hi guys;
On the advice of the wise and smart DieWalküre i finally manage to create an account here on MU. I'm feeling i little bit lost because all it's new for me here. I think it's the right place to post my ideas anyway (i hope  xD). As i wrote on Moddb i have a new idea about Sauron; reporting what i wrote:

"Hey guys, i was thinking about a new power for the Dark Lord:
Since the Tol-In-Gaurhoth is an ability of both Sauron with the ring and Gorthaur, why do not keep it as a power of Gorthaur and replace it with something else when you pick up the ring? In this way the two forms of Sauron would be even more unique. Concering the new ability i was thinking about a hero-interferer ones, since from the lore the power of Sauron to control minds and deceive enemies is well known.
Also a hero-killer ability would fit: in the book Sauron kills Gil-Galad burning him alive.
Just an idea :)
Img15.deviantart.net"

- Also regarding the Necro-form i would increase a bit (something like 20%) the melee attack value. The low frequency of attack of the Necromancer is itself a sufficient penalisation in my opinion.

Let me know what you think about it Edain companions!!  :D
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Mai 2017, 14:35 von AulëTheSmith »

lordoflinks

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Re: New Dark Lord power
« Antwort #1 am: 4. Apr 2017, 04:22 »
I am not in favor of this.
My reason is simple, Sauron can pick up the ring at any point in the game and once he has it, he cannot transform into any other form. Hence I think it is unfair to lock the player out of such a cool and powerful ability. In addition, Mordor only has one ring hero so your suggestion would force them to give up the ring if they wanted to build the fortress.
However, if Sauron was able to transform into other forms while he had the ring, I would support your proposal.

You are in the right place. Good job on the avatar, it took me months to figure that one out.  :)
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Walküre

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Re: New Dark Lord power
« Antwort #2 am: 4. Apr 2017, 06:46 »
And I'm very happy to welcome you here, industrious Aulë of many skills! Thank you for deciding to join the in-depth discussion going on in the forum. I'm sure you shall soon realise that this is the only place apt for conceiving worthy concepts and for letting them blossom in significantly important proposals. If you have the time to wander a bit throughout the English boards, you will discover many great suggestions that are just looking forward to being consulted. In doubt, you may always ask questions in the appropriate threads or PM me directly.

On the matter, I always fancied that ability (Gorthaur's fortress) due to its reference to the Elder Days and to the fact that it displays another trait of Sauron, consisting of him leading foul creatures with his magic; as we are truly told in the Silmarillion that Gorthaur had dominion over a wide range of dreadful monsters, of which evil spirits of any sort were a part too. That is therefore a feature that I find a good deal proper for his characterisation, if we also consider the defensive storm system (in line with the weather-manipulating motive which I enjoy very much). Said that, Sauron as the Dark Lord of Middle-earth is a slightly different matter in my eyes: as a concept, it's probably the quintessence of the Second Age and I don't deem it completely correct to grant him that possibility while in that form (even though he could certainly have raised that fortress again, if he had wanted to). Furthermore, Tolkien makes very clear that he had lost his shape-shifting abilities after the disastrous fall of Númenor (something he could no longer have retrieved); so that it might be possible to infer that he had also been deprived of that typology of magic. At least, not in the fashion as he would do in the First Age as Gorthaur (when he used to be feared as a deadly sorcerer). Nevertheless, I don't feel like coming up with a proposal myself, because I would rather listen to what other people have to suggest. Yet I would be glad to participate, should an interesting alternative for his Ring form arise.

As an off-topic consideration, it's equally good to see that there is someone who has given back dignity to that name ('Aulë'), as it had become in the past a misnomer indicating awful attitude and over-the-top behaviour in this forum. It's comforting to know that the good name of the smith-Vala now rests in good hands  ;)

AulëTheSmith

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Re: New Dark Lord power
« Antwort #3 am: 4. Apr 2017, 12:56 »
Dear lordof links  ;)
I understand your point but there are many other situations in the game in which you have to make choices among different cool things: Galadriel ring-form (the two form are really opposite one to the other), another is when you pick up the ring with Saruman and you have to abandon "Power of Speech" (very powerful ability that also allow you to avoid banner carriers purchasing  [ugly]) and many other examples. I think the logic of Edain 4.0 is itself a matter of choiches between different strategies/magics/powers. 
Furthermore as Diewalküre said concernig Gorthaur: powers and creatures of Tol-In-Gaurhoth are something  coming from ancients times (they "taste" like Melkor i don't know how to explain better this feeling  [ugly]) so they rightly belong to Gorthaur ("Power of Past Ages").
Anyway I'm already thinking about how and what implement as a power properly. The idea of Sauron burning heroes is attractive  [ugly], but  it could be repetitive with respect to the Necro fire-form.
Also the ability of control minds of the heroes could be fitting: if we think about  how Sauron debauchs Saruman's mind to use him as a puppet.
I need your help to develope something very cool and fitting  8-)

Diewalküre you are as always too kind. I don't know what happened in the past but that is my idea of Aulë: a wise and hard-worker smith which doesn't put himself over the others but try to help offering all the knowledge he has (with some edges,but hey nobody is perfect).  xD

p.s.: my profile picture is clearly a source of inspiration to create mischiefing and interfering powers  [ugly]
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Mai 2017, 14:36 von AulëTheSmith »

Walküre

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Re: New Dark Lord power
« Antwort #4 am: 4. Apr 2017, 13:39 »
Diewalküre you are as always too kind. I don't know what happened in the past but that is my idea of Aulë: a wise and hard-worker smith which doesn't put himself over the others but try to help offering all the knowledge he has (with some edges,but hey nobody is perfect).  xD

Yours is in fact a loyal definition of the Vala's temperament and nature. Quiet and supportive. Regarding the past, let's say that the 'other Aulë' was the exact opposite of you. Clearly, one of my moderating nightmares. An utter nightmare  :D

Regardless of the character depicted, every Avatar that has to do with Age of Mythology just commands respect.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: New Dark Lord power
« Antwort #5 am: 2. Mai 2017, 13:20 »
Hi Guys :) after almost a month i finally managed to return to this post to share with you some ideas :)
Resuming the idea i was talking about: a new power to substitute the fortress of Tol-In-Gaurhoth bacause it is a bit repetitive and also it fits best with the ancient form of Sauron. Furthermore the clear objective of edain 4 is to define better the role of each hero,unit,structure,siege weapon. So this modification would be a little step forward in this direction in my opinion.
Since I think the aspect of Sauron which is most relevant is the power to control and submit others using dicieving and Magic , one possible replacement of the fortress could be a very strong and unique power to convert and/or read minds of enemy heroes. I'm gonna explain better this concept below. Something we know is since Sauron is a maiar his power is superior with respect to the other normal creatures (man elves dwarves etc ). He's not one of the greatest in direct combat but has a very powerful aura which is able to corrupt even the strongest of minds.
When Aragorn looked into the palantir was very difficult for him to keep the conversation with the dark lord and finally Sauron instilled desperation in his heart. Also during the Battle of Dagorlad Gil-Galad and Ealendil face Sauron together otherwise it was very difficult to withstand his presence individually.
That's my idea:

Dark Manipulation (the name of ability can change, in fact i'm not totally satisfied about it)(requires level 10) : The Dark Lord concentrates the power of the ring to torture and finally control the mind of an enemy hero. The selected enemy hero can suffer 3 possible effect:

1)The enemy hero is not able to resist before the mighty power of a Maiar. He totally lose his mind and finally Sauron is able to control him and use him for his purposes. The enemy hero is temporary convert on your side and filled with a new strenght: he has +50% attack. However, due to the corruption of his mind, he cannot use abilities.

2) The mind of the enemy hero is tortured and Sauron force him to reveal all his plans and secrets: for a long time ALL of the enemy heros share their sight with you and they are 25% slower.

3) The enemy hero free himself from the dark vice of Sauron but he's demoralized and outworn: he has -25% of attack and defence for a short time.

The ability cannot be activated together with "Dark Will" . The three effect are in decreasing order of power and are random. However i thinked about an inverse proportion between level of the hero and probability to suffer a more powerful effect: the most the hero is experienced, the most will be able to resist. In this way the first effect is more probable from level from 1 to 3, the second from 3 to 6, the last one from 6 to 10. Of course sounds a bit complicated but fitting in my opinion. I don't know about possible technical problems regarding this i'm not an expert  [ugly].
Of course you have to focuse your attention to the general idea because details and parameters can be changed. I need your opinion to know if it's a good and fitting idea and a valid substitution of Tol-In-Gaurhoth. (REMEMBER: only for the ring form  xD)


Ps: my friend dieWalküre you are right: aom is one of the best game and also is a good tool to contemporary have fun and learn interesting things about mythology (especially the Nordic one which is usually less known)
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Mai 2017, 14:37 von AulëTheSmith »

Dain@

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Re: New Dark Lord power
« Antwort #6 am: 2. Mai 2017, 17:13 »
Very good concept! :) Forgive me for my English and for grammar mistakes! Because he wrote in a rush. xD
 To put it bluntly, I both like and dislike Mordor for several reasons. One of the reasons why I do not like mordor is the Necromancer / Gorthaur / Sauron. The problem is that the logic of the development of the Dark Lord's power is not traced: the Necromancer is a wonderful hero supporting the hero and a terrible hero of direct action. If you do not score at least level 7 Necramancite, then you are doomed to fail against enemy heroes, which is not so easy between other things and it takes a long time. If you have level 7, then due to the dark cloud and the firepower of the Necromancer, you have at least some chances to defeat the enemy heroes, but if the enemy has a strong hero on the battlefield with a level of development (Glorfindel, Torin, Kelembribor, Aragorn, even Lurz at level 5 is able to kill the Necromancer! - and after all he is the ancestor of evil in Middle-earth !!!), then you will probably lose, and you will have nothing to give him in terms of confrontation of his hero. And the reason is simple: not very incomprehensible and unfinished system of development of the Necromancer, namely: terrible low damage, and a little above the average level damage at level 10 with all his abilities. Understand me correctly in terms of the destruction of enemy troops at level 10, he is normal, but against the key heroes of the enemy he is weak + to etomu in 4.5. Gandalf, Saruman, (and I think that Galadriel) get very strong bonuses.
The second. DieWalküre correctly noted that Gorthaur was much stronger and more powerful than Sauron with the ring, but the game is all the way around ;)
Third: you are right AulëTneSmith that mentioned the moment with Gil Galad and Elendil. Indeed, few people in Middle-earth could fight with him! Also a very good example you filed with Aragorn! And I agree with you about the ability of direct action and weakening of the enemy hero for any form: Necromancer / Gorthaur / Sauron.
Also, judging by the words of DieWalküre, it follows that Sauron is gaining strength and power in the following order: Necromancer - Sauron with ring - Gorthaur.
The problem is that this chain looks like the Necromancer is a good supporting hero with an element of indirect destruction of armies and heroes, Gorthaur is slightly stronger due to direct damage (but his new three forms add a lot of new tactical moments) and - Almighty Sauron! At level 10, it can destroy all enemies alone (still! With such damage, and even in the area, and with the abilities of mass destruction !!!)
I understand very well that a very heated discussion is expected about Sauron, but I think that eventually this discussion will lead to the sixth significant and compromise proposal (along with Narya, Lady Galadriel, Ax Doriata, Ohranki Orkhank and Fredius proposal).

AulëTheSmith

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Re: New Dark Lord power
« Antwort #7 am: 3. Mai 2017, 00:06 »
Thank you very much Dain  :) Don't worry about english i understand because i also made mistakes. When you have to explain concept and other detailed things it takes time and it's not simple to find fitting words: probably english mothertongue in the forum are gonna kill me when they read some horrid phrases [ugly] .
Talking about the Necromancer: i'm pretty satisfied about the abilities and i only want to free a slot in the ring form to underline best the character of Sauron as a Deciever. Since the Tol-In-Gaurhoth is a repetition and it is something related to the past i think worth to remove it to not waste potential. So my concept is meant to be something related only to the ring form. Despite this i partially agree with you about the necro-form: i wrote it before a reasonable increasing of the melee attack wouldn't be a sin. I know that it is an area of effect attack but it deserves a bit more power to be punchy. Apart the story of the weakness against heroes (which is mostly  reasonable), also against normal unit sometime he's not so incisive: again as stated before the slowness is itself a sufficient penalisation in my opinion.

Anyway i hope this proposal will be significant and compromise as you said. The other five concept are very well creafted and i hope they will see the light in some 4.5.x - 4.6 patch :)

 
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Mai 2017, 14:38 von AulëTheSmith »

AulëTheSmith

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Re: New Dark Lord power
« Antwort #8 am: 4. Mai 2017, 14:47 »
I made some corrections because I noticed that I was mistaken totally the name of the fortress  [ugly], what a shame to me [ugly]. Anyway DieWalküre the Wise what do you think about my concept? What would you change about it?

Out of topic: about the evil-Aulë which was a nightmare I'm curious about the story...Did you confine him in the Tartarus behind an adamantium gate?  :D

Walküre

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Re: New Dark Lord power
« Antwort #9 am: 4. Mai 2017, 16:10 »
I'm not yet so sure and motivated to express myself in a precise way. I'm actually quite torn inside: on one side, I find it legitimate to speculate whether his ancient powers as Gorthaur were lost after the downfall of Númenor (interpretation in which I believe and which justifies the replacement of the said ability); on the other, as I told Dáin in another thread, Sauron fares really well as a character, at the present time. Not only may he dispose of the most diverse and iconic Palantír, but he just embodies his faction and fulfils his own role in a bloody brilliant way! Really, I always feel in awe in front of his concept, crafted so that his entire lore throughout the centuries is somehow covered. That is also the reason why I'm often sceptical about any change that regards him. Henceforth, I won't give any judgement for now. Develop your concept in total liberty and don't let yourself be swayed by my stances on the matter  ;)

After a solemn warning, I cast on him a confining spell. Every other transgression shall be smitten and neutralised.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: New Dark Lord power
« Antwort #10 am: 5. Mai 2017, 12:55 »
Both you and Dain have underlined a crucial point: when we talk about Sauron it's not a easy field in which we can discuss.  :) That's because as you said he's already a well-crafted and very complex character. He's one of the maximum expression of the qualitity of this mod.   
Nevertheless i feel that i'm in the right direction to improve and put some"cherry on the cake" to this already beautiful concept.
I will work constantly to enrich my concept  ;)

After a solemn warning, I cast on him a confining spell. Every other transgression shall be smitten and neutralised.
I also have to say there is only one true Aule and it's me  :D i'm kidding of course. I hope in the future you will never face situation like this anymore.